comments on an article august 16

Muslims divided on other faiths : Some build ties; others see heresy

BY YONAT SHIMRON – Staff Writer

Comments (305)

Published: Sun, Aug. 16, 2009 03:39AM

Modified Sun, Aug. 16, 2009 04:23AM

RALEIGH — A fissure in Raleigh’s Muslim community emerged nearly a year ago, long before last month’s indictments of eight men on federal charges that they conspired to commit terrorist acts.

It happened in early October when Hamdy Radwan got up to give the Friday afternoon sermon at the Islamic Association of Raleigh.

The Egyptian-born physical therapy professor and part-time prayer leader was known in the community for advocating stronger ties with non-Muslims.

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On this particular Friday, he challenged Muslims to go a step further.

Using a verse from the Quran, Radwan said they must love their non-Muslim neighbors.

Midway into the sermon, Jude Kenan Mohammad, 20, now wanted by authorities for his supposed role in the terrorist plot, leaped up and yelled, ” Kufr! Kufr!” using the Arabic word for “heresy.”

Two other men then joined in and declared that Radwan had misinterpreted the meaning of the verse. They argued that God requires Muslims only to deal fairly with their neighbors, not to love them.

Suddenly the khutba, as the usually sedate Friday sermon is known, erupted into a shouting match. Within minutes, a team of mosque security men swooped in to bring the service back to order.

The incident, a minor one by most people’s accounting, crystallized a struggle at the heart of this Muslim community: To what degree may Muslims form friendships and even show love to people of other faiths?

The question is particularly pressing in light of the July 27 arrests of seven Triangle-area men charged with conspiring to commit terrorist acts abroad. The arrests stunned many Muslims who had assumed the community was incapable of mounting such a conspiracy.

“I think there’s a consensus that interfaith work is not only recommended — it’s required,” said Ali Zelmat, a member of the Raleigh Muslim community.

But in light of the arrests, many Muslims are now wondering whether that viewpoint is widely shared. The question confronts other U.S. Muslim communities that have wrestled with allegations of homegrown terrorists.

Hours after the sermon scuffle, Mohammad, who so flagrantly interrupted the speaker, boarded a jet at Raleigh-Durham International Airport and flew to Pakistan. Days later, he was arrested by Pakistani intelligence agents for trying to enter tribal areas close to the Afghanistan border.

According to a federal indictment, Mohammad planned to engage in violent jihad while he was there. A Fuquay-Varina High School dropout, Mohammad is the eighth man named in the terrorism conspiracy. He is a fugitive, thought to be in Pakistan.

Mohammad and his mentor, Daniel Boyd, alleged to be the ringleader of the group, advocated not only separation from non-Muslims but war against them.

‘You have left Islam’

For Boyd, called “Saifullah” by his recruits, those who advocate loving their non-Muslim neighbors have abandoned Islam.

That’s the picture that emerges from government exhibits presented this month during a two-day hearing to determine whether the seven men suspected of terrorism could be released before their trial. A judge ruled they could not.

In these exhibits, which include taped conversations recorded by an undercover informant, Boyd denounced non-Muslims and members of his own faith.

Boyd, a 39-year-old father of five who lives in the Johnston County community of Willow Spring, talked derisively of Muslim immigrants in the United States who want nothing more than to be comfortable and earn money.

“These people are tripping and have left Islam,” Boyd said during a conversation taped July 3. “If you live among the kufar [an Arabic word for non-Muslims] and they are comfortable with you, you have left Islam.”

yonat.shimron@newsobserver.com or 919-829-4891.

Get it all with convenient home delivery of The News & Observer.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 10:52 PM:

ok ,,, sky ,, and everyone,,, until later.

I had to go too, and now I am back , but off until later.

Never got a respond for the why they took away ALL evidence question…..wonder why?

SINCE THERE IS NO ANSWER! Except the a harsh reality that something reaaaaaly fishy going on,,,,

Of course planes were there,,,, LOL, ,, take your time but don’t fall for the crazy pod people and other weirdoes who discredit serious scientific research, and yes it will take time especially since we are not experts in various fields.

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AgentPierce wrote on August, 16 10:17 PM:

A BART EHRMAN reference !!! Anyone ever noticed that no one ever stands near Bart during thunder & lightning storms?

I see where madmarc has been laying down his daily lectures from RealityByMarc. He really should write a book revising the entire history of modern civilization as seen from Carrboro. Condensing all his insights in one volume would sure save the rest of us from having to think for ourselves ….. which apparently most of us aren’t too good at according to marc.

Internet athiests tend to be a feisty bunch. I think it has to do with silly usernames ….. or being mishandled as infants.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 10:16 PM:

sky5714 thanks for your response.

(1) Re: your website – what would anybody think if they saw a website called ‘Judism: religion of life! And stacks of dead bodies!’. How about a web site entitles ‘Christianity, religion of Peace! And stacks of dead bodies!’ Clearly nobody would say these are websites that are neutral. The bigotry of the site is plain, at least to me.

(2) Yes, I know Saudi Arabia is an intolorant state. It’s been ‘Islamic Only’ for over 1000 years. OTOH I was speaking in a historical context (and I think you know this). I’m not comparing modern Islam in Saudi Arabia to the USA, I’m comparing the Ottoman Empire (and Islamic Empire with a long well domented history) with Christian kingdoms in Europe (which were Christian with a long documented history). Hence I say (and history backs me up, sorry) that Christians and Jews faired better under Islam than under Christianity. Sorry if historical fact doesn’t go along with what you want to be true.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 10:10 PM:

Debrah I already said it was inappropriate to call anybody white trash and apologized. Otherwise I don’t know what the heck you’re talking about. It helps if you have a point, it makes it more interesting. “Cool it”? Cool what? You think that there is no reason for an American taxpayer to wonder why the USA shells out $4billion annually in welfare payments to Israel? Exactly what does America get from that? How is that a return on my money?

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 10:06 PM:

kedavra you write ‘just how many places and which ones do you think there are where non-muslims are faring better under muslim rule than muslims are faring here in the US or in the UK.’

HA! I’d be one of the last people to defend the leadership in many modern ‘Islamic’ countries. First of all many Arab nations expelled their Jewish populations after the creation of Israel, which was petty, stupid and just plain bigoted. I don’t know a lot about Indonesia(sp?) so I cannot comment about them. Not surprisingly you’ve settled on modern times in the US/UK. You don’t have to go to far back when Jews (not to mention Catholics) were not allowed to practice their religion in the UK. It’s worth mentioning that much of the Arab world (largly Islamic) is still recovering from the fall of the Ottomans in WW1, so there is no ‘Islamic Empire’ or ‘power’ to make a comparisan with. I tend to look at the histories of Islam and Christianity, and see what these state-religion countries did over time.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 9:46 PM:

ebbtide –

Time for me to go. Since we have both been quoting the Qur’an all day, instead here is one of my favorite sayings of Jesus: “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life” (John 8:12)

Til the next time …

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:26 PM:

sky ,,, we have a soul connect and i really mean it,,, honor l killing are criminal in Islamic law and absence of Islamic law and corrupt secular ways and ignorance and tribalism allows this crime to continue. All scholars of Islam say that – so all this sensationalize to revile the Muslims by s choosing some to revile all. Do you want me to remind you that the Nazis wore Catholic symbols since they were against Stalin’s communism, or so on and so forth.

As for stoning, the Bible prescribes it for adultery, and all Christians and Jews who hold it inerrant say that it is ALL true (we say parts are corrupted like Bart D Ehrman of UNC Chapel Hill etc), so whatever they say to defend it is what we say also, for we say adultery is a great sin, but note in Islamic law you need four eye witnesses who saw penetration, and that is protection against slander, and the slanderer who doesn’t have 4 witnesses gets lashes

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 9:20 PM:

ET – it will take me a while to go through the 911 Research site – thank you for providing it. I am neither a physicist nor an engineer, so the finer points will go over my head anyway. And I’m confused as to the main point – it seems to debunk one researcher who claimed there were no planes. So the planes crashed into the building but the building collapse was not due to the crashes?

And I still do not understand what the motive could be – why would someone fake the attacks?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:14 PM:

As for a motive ,,,, hmmm,,, well, lets starts here:

Did you ever read the publications of the

“Project for the New American Century” and the 2000 90-page report entitled Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategies, Forces, and Resources For a New Century:

And did you see the statement: “…Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor”

See it on Wikipedia, even.

Hum,,,, interesting huh

Cheney and all his neo-con buddies who started the Iraq war were all in on that one, in those hubris days of the when they proclaimed the ‘end of history’ [see Fukuyama ]

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:12 PM:

yI never said I am expert – you are just trying to mock me (not very nice) – but I do like to read what experts say on their subject of expertise, which seems a sensible thing to do to learn something, and I like to see what people who give testimonials say about what they saw and heard.

Do you?

Have you read?

Do not take anything I here say as true – that is my way and urging to you all – but go do research for yourself from both sides or all sides, and then you will begin to have an idea about a subject without knee-jerk bias and ignorance.

Motive hmmm,,,

Did you ever read

Project for the New American Century, the 2000 90-page report entitled Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategies, Forces, and Resources For a New Century:

And the statement: “…Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor”

See it on Wikipedia even.

Hum,,,, interesting huh

Che

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 9:04 PM:

Actually ET I read the very same book as a teenager too – truly I did, and I remember being struck by the seemingly bottomless capacity of man (and woman of course) for cruelty. Heartbreaking.

I want the truth also – that’s why I will never be content with pale imitations of it. And when I see Islamic scripture used to justify suicide bombings, and honor killings, and stoning – real stoning – by burying women up to their necks (or waists) in sand, and pelting them with rocks to death, for offenses so minor as simply alleged adultery (even though there are supposed to be witnesses – that rule is often ignored).

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:54 PM:

waiting

Do you know when I started to think for myself, me the little boy used to playing cowboys and injuns in the woods with sticks and pine cones etc?

I read the book “Bury my heart at Wounded Knee” by Dee Brown (a courageous white guy) [See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_My_Heart_at_Wounded_Knee ]

and I cried in shame. Read and enjoy some truth.

A very moving and factual book of living testimonials that shook me as a teenager. I cried and then I got angry at all those liars and the lies, and then I knew I had to read all side of a story myself. The truth will set you free

Each piece of knowledge is better that a pearl or nugget of gold or diamond, and God made lots of pearls, gold and diamonds.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 8:52 PM:

ET – As you should know, since you are indeed a scholar, in every crime there is a motive. I don’t understand how 9/11 was an inside job. Even if what you say was true, what would be the motive?

ME – do you agree with ET that 9/11 was an inside job? Why or why not?

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 8:47 PM:

ET – glad you’re being perfectly transparent. So the 9/11 attacks were an inside job? Fascinating. So are you a physics expert as well as an Islamic scholar?

ME – you posted earlier that you were willing to learn – go back to the website – go to features – “About Muslims” and FAQ. You spent approximately 3 seconds, you looked and didn’t read. You really should try reading yourself – you obviously speak out of ignorance.

“I know Jews and Christians fared far better under Islamic rule than Muslims and Jews did under Christian rule.” Really? Try going to Saudi Arabia with a Bible. That’s already been posted, but of course you couldn’t be bothered actually reading the previous posts.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 8:41 PM:

ME – Just out of curiousity, today, in our current world, just how

many places and which ones do you think there are where non-muslims are faring better under muslim rule than muslims are faring here in the US or in the UK?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:38 PM:

Why did they cart all the evidence away quickly??? Huh??

The biggest crime in history, as they say, and they immediately cart it all off for sale (got make a buck,) [at Pentagon too], so no one can see it and sift through it and study it scientifically to determine what happened to protect for next time by better design, etc.

That should alert you to something, if nothing else does!

What crime scene do you see them quickly destroy and not cordon off for study?

Got an answer, please.

I am waiting on that one.

Go research it a bit thou, and please don’t say something to make people laugh.

[then Kissinger was going to head the 911 commissioner but people made such a fuss – saying ‘How can the liar of the Vietnam Nixon era, who has been implicated for war crimes by the world court etc, head such a commission’) but then they got other whitewasher anyways.

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Debrah wrote on August, 16 8:35 PM:

TO “marcedward1”–

You really need to think about cooling it.

You’re beginning to sound as though you’ve been spending too much time in the granola bin of Weaver Street Market.

I have nothing against those who wish to live in the 1960’s 20th century; however, even those molded Leftists of bygone days exhibited an avant-garde flair…..even if affected.

And by the way, if you want to call John Edwards and his clan “white trash”, I doubt many here would argue; however, I have no idea which commenter you used that appellation on.

It’s out of place in this discussion.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 8:30 PM:

Sky, went by your website, and it’s obviously an anti-Islamic website. Why else have the ‘and a big stack of dead bodies’ in the heading? If you don’t think it’s an anti-Islamic site, well, that’s like saying that the KKK was about self defense. Moreover, it’s a stupid web site, because it wears it’s religious bigotry in a rather glaring manner. Even Jesse Helms knew to hide his racism.

Sorry, but Christianity has no business throwing stones at Islam. I know Jews and Christians fared far better under Islamic rule than Muslims and Jews did under Christian rule. Again, you really ought to try reading some books, because so far your only source for information is no better than getting ‘The KKKs guide to Non-Aryans’

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:27 PM:

,,,certified mad, etc,, Debrah, huh,, why do you abuse with insults. I have not insulted anyone here and respect other opinions, and will not stoop so low.

See the testimonials, research, evidence ,, oh ,, i forgot,,, sorry ,,,, you refuse to even look at what you disagree about ,, opps sorry ,,, you only take what you are fed ,, oh sorry to disturb your peace of mind,,,, That is not insult but obvious from your posts. I have read the other side.

As a matter of fact I go out of my way to read all sides of a story.

If I am mad then there is a whole group of 911 survivors who are mad also,,, really really mad! Just please read their websites books etc, for they are in revolt against the official story, cover up, whitewash!

One thing I learned in life –

Do the research yourself and don’t let anybody tell you anything as dogmatic, but go and see for yourself before you believe.

READ REFLECT

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 8:22 PM:

sky5714, First I shouldn’t have called anybody ‘white trash’, that is over the top, and I apologize.

OTOH you call me ignorant and have yet to provide one citation – I accept your surrender on that point.

If I say somebody doesn’t know what they are talking about, that’s an observation, not an insult. Many posters make comments about things they know nothing (like Islam, history, etc.). Many posters make bigoted comments, and I have no use for bigots.

As for saying most conservatives are hypocrites, well, it’s true. You really want to debate if most conservatives are hypocrites? As for Republicans being mostly liars, crooks and pervs, that’s also the reality of life. Again, feel free to provide where I’ve said something that is wrong and I’ll happily be corrected, but as it stands you have nothing.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 8:21 PM:

“kedavra when you start engaging in personal attacks against Ebb, it kinda makes it look like you’re losing whatever argument it is you’re having. It’s weak. Just thought you’d wanna know.”

I try a different tack from your posts, and really attempt to refrain from personal attacks. I don’t believe I’ve attacked ET – I respect him for preaching peace. I did ask him a personal question, which he has yet to answer. Which is his perogative. And I haven’t pushed it again.

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Debrah wrote on August, 16 8:18 PM:

“And 911 world trade center is inside job controlled demolition, proven by the fact of physics, a huge steel building cannot free fall in seven seconds ….”

***************************

This is certifiably mad.

One has to live in this society with such imbecilic maniacs….even as the other more intelligent, strong, and giving among us defend their right to be this studied in the art of insanity.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:17 PM:

And as for the suicide statistics below, I stated by known position below, and

actually those are good numbers considering the anger and desperation of the poor and wretched ones out there who live under the blessings of corporate globalization and local cronies and probably living on less than a dollar a day (not much education possible for that amount) , and probably much better than the % of republicans in SC that think Obama wasn’t born in USA and is really a Mooooslim, or a socialist agent out to destroy America etc, or the % of S Palin supporter republicans who still think seeing Russia from Alaska is a good qualification for foreign policy, etc etc

What do statistics like these prove – that 80% and so on disagree, so your argument is turned on its head proving that most do not like this form.

Who many American agree to using taxpayer money being used for white prosperous, depleted uranium, and so many other illegal weapons that are IN USE NOW by the way?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:03 PM:

Obviously you do not read sky,,, that is mine as translated.

And 911 world trade center is inside job controlled demolition, proven by the fact of physics, a huge steel building cannot free fall in seven seconds http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/reynolds/

for instance, explosions prior to, manner of collapse (see it close up), WT building no 7 and Silverstein’s “pull-it” remark, and on and on. See the research on this.

And remember FBI Informant provocateur Emad Salem, [WTC bombing February 26, 1993; i.e the first one] and his amazement that the FBI handlers ALOWWED the bombing to happen with a REAL bomb even thought they knew it was going to happen!!!!

Read Sky,, and tell me what is not facts of the case. In all that I have saiud here

I mention hard physics, and hard facts of history, from scholarly works of reputable experts.

n

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 7:55 PM:

Sampling of Marc’s posts:

“I think you’re full of it*.*that means you don’t know what you’re talking about and your opinion is worthless” – Palin stands by ‘death panel’ claim at 8/14/2009

“Are you really that infantile?” same story

“Is there any conservative who isn’t a hypocrite?” ditto

“Who cares what white trash like you think?” – Edwards’ lawyer won’t talk about paternity story at 8/14/2009

“everybody knows Republicans are liars, crooks and pervs” – Rove factor at 8/14/2009

“Maybe the loser gets a lethal injection and they harvest the organs for transplants (or sale?). Who wouldn’t want to watch that?” ‘Euthanasia’ scare at 8/11/2009

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 7:47 PM:

“jihad is a comprehensive word of comprehensive worship” and Holy War is a Crusader concept! you have got to be kidding me! I’m waiting for YOUR definition – not something you got from a “scholar”, although you’re a self-described scholar as well. ET, I’ve got to hand it to you – you have a huge capacity for spouting off disinformation.

Tell me ET, what exactly were the 9/11 hijackers doing, if not engaging in jihad? What would you call it? Do you think they’re in paradise with their 70 or however many virgins?

Re just war – nations do engage in war. Jesus said turn the other cheek, yes, but most Christians believe that we have the right to defend ourselves. And that means going to Afghanistan and rooting out terrorists whose main purpose in life is to destroy the US, and to institute Sharia law, and to rule by terror. Jesus stood up for the weak and the oppressed – he wasn’t some milque-toast, namby-pamby wimp.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 7:36 PM:

marc – Go back & read your own posts. “Most of these people ‘commenting’ about Islam seem to know what they see on TV or get from anti-Islamic websites.” WRONG. thereligionofpeace.com is not an anti-Muslim site. And I don’t watch TV.

You really are not a worthy opponent.

ET – still waiting for your definition of jihad.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 7:36 PM:

sky5714 ,, did you read that definition I pointed to, for it is scholarly work translated from an authoritative book of jurisprudence with original sources with proofs from Quran and Sunnah, and most Muslims all agree to this.

Jihad is a comprehensive word of comprehensive worship (read please), so “Holy War” idea is a crusader concept and knowledgeable Muslims reject this translation for the ugly middle ages and colonialist connotations.

Tell me in Christianity, do all Christians turn the other cheek as commanded [I know personally some that actually do faithfully- blessed souls of consciousness], or do they have just war theory, as it allowed to defend against attack and aggression, and is preemptive strike, and empire by (usury) corporation penetration and market building, allowed as just???

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 7:32 PM:

sky5714 – ET is no scholar. He is one of the Blame America First crowd and an apologist for the violence.

Oh well – I hope we reached some of the lurkers as Agent Pierce alluded to. Have a great evening.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 7:32 PM:

sky5714 it’s a sign of how weak your position that you engage in personal attacks. Instead of calling me ignorant, why not back it up? Show me where I’ve posted lies or have been out and out wrong. I’m certainly open to having my mind changed, which anyone should be if they are honestly engaging in an argument.

I’m betting having laid out our limp flame, you’ll scurry away with your tail between your legs, but feel free to prove me wrong, show me where I’ve been ‘ignorant’. I’m all too happy to learn better.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 7:23 PM:

What supreme foolish ignorance in this translation?

No God but God!!!!

Ouch for ignorance and blind desire!

The true translation is “there is no god (small g for false deities that polytheists worship) except the One God (with capital G for ONE God of all universe). La ilaha illa-Allah.

This is same as Shema in Judaism, an affirmation and declaration of faith in one God.

Christians have trinity which both Jews and Muslims object to as idolatrous for it makes men into gods as it is in Theosis (“deification,” “divinization”) as in statement of St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become God”, and as in II Peter 1:4 where it says ” . . . partakers of divine nature.”

Please go down a bit in comments for I explained the word Allah and this all before so not to repeat please .

Don’t jump to conclusion on ignorance

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 7:19 PM:

“someone else’s” of course

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 7:16 PM:

marc – as usual you attack others when they’ve left the board for a while – I’ve noticed that cowardly trait you have. Personal attacks? Anyone reading a sampling of your posts reads one baseless attack after another. You know nothing about Islam – you’re just spouting off your daily kos talking points.

You are in way above your head – every time you post you show your ignorance. You are good at platitudes and not much else. The last time I ran you off, you were pontificating about Jesus. You never did answer me – what church do you attend? How long have you been tithing your income? What ministries are you involved with?

ET – how about your own definition of jihad? Not someone’s elses – you are a scholar – surely you can define it here. I’m sure your fellow mosque-attenders would like to see your definition as well.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 7:12 PM:

neo_mom ,, do you read!!!!!!

President Reagan said that ,,,, not me !!!!!

And the Marshall plan HA!

That was self interest as a stalwart against international communism, by the way, after our WWII “ally” and buddy Stalin got frisky (we knew all about that but that’s another story)

Ever wonder why all those Nazi went to South American in fascist regimes there?

hmm,,

Ever read about “Ratlines” with Vatican help ,,, systems of escape routes for Nazis… wiki it!

and what about US Army School of Americas (SOA), based in Fort Benning GA, and the fascist connections of murderous regimes in Latin American who were “our guys” down there.

Marshal plan as altruistic,, READ a bit please.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 7:10 PM:

marc – look at page 53 of the pew research poll….

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

Percent of muslims in various countries that feel that suicide bombing of civiiian targets to defend islam can be justified Often or Sometimes:

The US – 8%, France – 16%, Spain 16%, UK – 15%, Germany – 7%, Nigeria – 46%, Jordan 29%, Egypt – 28%, Turkey – 17%, Pakistan – 14%, Indonesia – 10%.

Those are much larger numbers than snake handlers or mormons.

So who is intellectually dishonest?

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 7:00 PM:

ebb, you might also suggest ‘No God but God’, a decent history of Islam. Most of these people ‘commenting’ about Islam seem to know what they see on TV or get from anti-Islamic websites.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 7:00 PM:

spell check – sacred instead of scared – of course

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 6:59 PM:

thanks ,, marcedward1,,, but lies and misinformation about Islam are hard to take, and of course being out in the natural beauty God created is much better of course ,, but reality and truth are dear and beautiful also in their own way, since salvation from hell fire [all Christians Jews and Muslims believe in hellfire by the way – one of the many common denominators that distinguish us from atheists] is even more scared and more beautiful.

Falsehood leads to hell and truth to paradise.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 6:57 PM:

kedavra, just got to your other post – read some history of the Ottoman empire, because as it is your ignorance is just embarrassing. Not sure where you get your information, but instead of going to anti-Muslims websites you might try getting a book. We have libraries here in NC ya know.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 6:55 PM:

kedavra when you start engaging in personal attacks against Ebb, it kinda makes it look like you’re losing whatever argument it is you’re having. It’s weak. Just thought you’d wanna know.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 6:53 PM:

The Mujahedeen are like Washington or Jefferson. Wow – that’s a leap. And a FAIL as far as analogies go. Lets do a comparison… Founding Fathers want religious and economic freedom. Mujahedeen want to oppress religious freedom.

But I am getting your theme now. America is imperialist and the root of all evil in the world.

Even though America is the only country to rebuild the countries of its former enemies after defeat – read about the Marshall plan. We don’t rule in Germany, or Italy, or Japan. We protected Bosnia and Kosovo. We even tried to protect Somalia. We freed Kuwait. We not only allowed, but encouraged the Iraqis and Afghans to develop their own constitutions and hold elections.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 6:50 PM:

sky5714 —

you miss the point about running for congress Frazier Miller -(still very active in Missouri by the way).

the point is that was not too long ago.

You think grievances just disappear from people with deep scars and wounds, they and their parents and grandparents?

Palestinians have the keys to the homes they were terrorized out of.

READ some of the books i have mentioned please, and then reflect on human nature.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 6:49 PM:

neo_mom generalizing about all Muslims based on the acts of the extremes is silly, not to mention intellectually dishonest – what’s your ‘masters degree’ in where you could get away with that sloppy thinking? That’d be like characterizing all Christians based on snake handlers and mormons.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 6:45 PM:

Ebb, Sky, Neo – interesting ‘debate’, but I gotta wonder if this is the best way to spend your daylight hours? It’s not a bad Summer day and you all have been at it for hours and hours! Are you all legless or something?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 6:45 PM:

Jihad,,, hummm,,,, for a start

see

Jihad and Misconceptions

https://supportdanielboyd.wordpress.com/jihad-and-misconceptions/

and note also in light of recent events etc

And please go ask the advisers of president Reagan about Jihad, against evil empire of communism.

And ask advisers of Father Bush in Gulf war (I) when it was promoted to fight Jihad against Saddam.

Or maybe the Clinton advisers when they were helping the Mujahedeen Bosnian against the Serbians atrcities.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 6:37 PM:

golly gee, that means that Mujahedeen –gasp – are like the rebels Washington ,Jefferson etc of those that rebelled against the tyranny of the colonial aristocratic crown, read EMPIRE.

By the way ever read from the books of Chalmers Johnson (of blowback term fame):

* Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire

* The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic

* Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic.

[See Wikipedia on them for more]

I have.

Read and enjoy history in the making still, for Obama is upgrading USA Military infrastructure in Afghanistan (for instance 60 million for Baghram, for instance – our taxpayer money) for the long term after Bush upgraded USA Military infrastructure (ever read about the new so-called “embassy” in Baghdad -) in Iraq for the long term.

Read and realize that the truth will set you free

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 6:33 PM:

That KKK-type site has nothing to do with your perceived persecution of Muslims as a minority in this country. You used it as an inflammatory device.

You know perfectly well that the vast majority of Americans condemn that kind of racism. Really, what is your point – you associate a Vietnam vet, green beret, with the KKK? We’re supposed to make some kind of a logical leap?

I don’t defend what the US did when it armed SH in Iraq. It was an incredibly stupid thing to do. One reason the US has consistently made mistakes in the Middle East & Afghanastan etc. is that it failed to understand Islam. Even George Bush called it a “religion of peace”. That’s where we kept going wrong – we wanted to believe that Muslims were just like us, and would rejoice at the chance for freedom and democracy. Does that mean I think Muslims are bad etc. – of course not. But Islam must be understood on its own terms – we shouldn’t sugar-coat its practice just because we want to be tolerant etc

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 6:26 PM:

And I too condemn the actions of Erik Prince IF the allegations are true – but that is a big IF.

I have also said repeatedly about Boyd & the rest of the alleged terrorists – Innocent until proven guilty.

Here in this country, in the midst of the kuffar, they are afforded attorneys and lots & lots of time to research their cases in defense of the charges. In this country, Muslims are even given compasses, so they can face Mecca. In this country, prisoners are fed food that is halal. In this country, they have access to Muslim chaplains.

Please define jihad for us, ebbtide.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 6:24 PM:

I did that KKK type website to show you that this guy was marching in Raleigh NC marching proudly with his racist buddies, and he was green beret in Vietnam etc, (running for congress now by the way) and I am talking about the real grievances and violence on minorities in this country which make people react. Other peoples would not react also?

Every wonder where Saddam got his weapons?

Ever see the picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam (see youtube). The USA didn’t care about Kurds then, only afterwards when it suited politically.

Remember that the USA and others armed Saddam to the teeth when he was fighting Iran (Oh golly gee forgot that one) since he was one of our clients back then. That why i repeat in this Boyd the fact that President Reagan said while introducing some leaders of the Afghan Mujahideen (from the Arabic word “Jihad”) to the media on the White House lawns (1985):

“These gentlemen are the moral equivalents of America’s founding fathers.”

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 6:10 PM:

ET – Where have you tried to justify it… in your post at 5:55 for starters. You basically said that the violence is caused by pent up grievances. I find in interesting that you are now comparing to MLK and Ghandi, when in the Islamic theocracies, the muslims are the oppressors.

If you go back several hours you will find that I said that Eric Prince was wrong if he is indicted and convicted of what you say. However, I won’t condemn him as quickly as the mob condemned that christian family in Pakistan over a rumor.

You still will not condemn any of the violence that I have archived here (none of it from the dreaded Fox News) – most of which is muslim on muslim and against women and girls.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 6:09 PM:

Cato, thank you for your support, but please go see Butner , and see it as I have seen it, and then go to REAL maximum security prisons, and supermax prisons, where they put you in the “Hole” and put you in solitary confinement, and they let prisoners get raped and assaulted etc, or listen to the potcast about californium prisons on NPR, or read “California’s Prison Riots Reveal Deeper Crisis” in TIME, it fumes me to see minorities in hell holes and this billion $ swindler gets a nice place to walk around in the sun all day long.

Yes white collar crime is different, but the majority of minority and poor are not in for “violent” crimes,, see the stat on that please, and please – everyone agrees there is a crisis in prisons but are you saying there isnt???

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 6:04 PM:

ET –

For the fourth time, please answer why you posted the white supremacist website, whty.org?

Do you think Islam is a race of people? If so, why?

The race riots of the 60’s have nothing to do with jihad and with atrocities in the name of Islam today. Are you trying to justify jihadists?

No weapons of mass destruction? Tell that to the 10,000 Kurds, who were killed by Saddam Hussein by chemical agents, including mustard gas and sarin.

BTW, what is your definition of jihad?

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 6:00 PM:

neo_mom – which definition of Jihad are you referring to, Jihad as a holy war or Jihad as internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 5:55 PM:

WHERE have I tried “to justify the multitude of daily occurance of muslim-inspired violence” sic sic!

What a lie Just read! I am just showing a bit history and scholarship in books etc (if you read the kind I mention) to show you where grievances come from. Remember the race riots for the 60’s? That was pent up anger for injustices and so many insults and lynchings etc etc. If you oppress people long enough, some will die, some will bow down, but some will stand up like ML King and Malcolm X and other noble souls. Some will meet violence to protect themselves? Not all are like Gandi and are turn the other cheek types. That’s human nature.

Do you justify Erik Prince and Blackwater Xe?

Do you justify, Madeline Albright, and Ahmad Chalabi and are you still looking weapons of mass destruction?

Did you read below before commenting?

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 5:53 PM:

ebbtide – While I sympathize with you in general, Bernie Madoff is at Butner Federal prison – while he may not be making little rocks out of big rocks, it’s not exactly a country club prison – he’ll never be a free man again – richly deserved (no pun intended).

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 5:52 PM:

Cato –

Please go back and read the posts (no sarcasm). It’s an interesting conversation but no use rehashing what we’ve already been through. Please note also that kedavra has traveled extensive as well.

Thanks.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 5:52 PM:

I should add – that in addition to the existing theocracies, problems of these sorts also reside in those that would want a theocracy. Also see “jihad”

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 5:50 PM:

ET –

You’re still not addressing my question regarding the white supremacy website.

One generation of Saudis have had oil money???!!! Patently false, and you know it.

Sounds like you don’t like your Shi’ite brethren.

News flash – there’s a difference between white collar crime and violent crime. Criminals who hurt, maim, or murder others are indeed treated more harshly than those who devise schemes to steal money.

But then, in an Islamic theocracy, treatment would surely be a lot swifter and harsher, right?

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 5:50 PM:

cato – read the post… I was speaking of Saudi Arabia.

To answer your other question – sky answered it already. The theocracies with Sharia Law are the problem. fyi – I have traveled extensively.

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 5:49 PM:

sky5714 – I’m sorry, I didn’t follow the thread about theocracies. What I was reading was vilification about Muslims in general. Can you direct me to the thread (other than Saudi Arabia) that differentiates the conversation here?

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 5:46 PM:

neo_mom – do some research, you have a masters degree. “Women are not allowed to drive. They must be covered head to toe.” Simply not a fact in all Muslim societies. Again, like lumping all Christians into no make-up, below the knee dresses and beehive hairdos. Travel some and educate yourself, you may find some wonderful things.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 5:45 PM:

Cato –

The countries you visited are not Islamic theocracies. Turkey has a secular government – it is a constitutional republic, with freedom of religion contained as a right within its constitution.

You’re confusing apples & oranges.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 5:45 PM:

Saudis have had oil for one generation only and I personally know people who remember before oil and the American big seven oil companies association with ARAMCO. I have seen the original no.1 oil well too.

“..Sufi, Wahhabi , Shia, Sunni – the basic tenets are the same..” WOW, shows you how much you know as basic knowledge, for the Shia and Sufi are grave-worshipers who worship their saints and Imams, and the greatest sin in Islam is to worship other than the ONE GOD, and thus the Sunnis against polytheism.

I didn’t say ALL prisons but some of them, and of course their are many s fellowships and some of the Prisons are country clubs like the one PONZI schemer Maddoff is in, and all the white collar guys while the blacks and other minorities often get hell and dungeons in comparison.

prisonfellowship org is for Christians, but there are others too (even Wicca) , or maybe you forget the right of pluralism and just proselytize in prisons.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 5:44 PM:

nope – no burkinis here!

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 5:43 PM:

More on honoring women and girls…. Honor killings – even in the US and Canada.

16-year old in Canada strangled for refusing to wear the hijab http://www.thestar.com/News/article/285589.

Or the girls shot by their father in Texas for being too western http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=24329

25-year old in Georgia strangled by her father because she wanted to end her arranged marriage (with a blurb from the UN estimating 5000 honor killings occur every year) http://www.nypost.com/seven/07232008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/an_american_honor_killing_121118.htm

Should we start on how homosexuals are treated in Islam – pssst, its punishable by death? As opposed to the horrific treatment they receive here in the US by Christians that don’t believe they should marry? This article includes several examples. http://www.ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/07/April/0301.htm

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 5:40 PM:

neo_mom – What do you have against Muslims,, do you also have problems with Jews, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, etc. or is it anyone that just doesn’t have your core value of beliefs? I’ve traveled quite extensively in predominately Muslim countries (Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia), have always been treated with respect and I respected their culture and customs (when in Rome….). There’s a Muslim lady I know in Indonesia who has personally financed and raised 70 orphans, how many good Christians do you know who’ve done that? Not all Muslim women are subjugated by men. Lumping all Muslims into one category is like lumping all Christians into the Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson click.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 5:38 PM:

And Saudi Arabia has had oil money for how many generations now? They can’t plead ignorance or poverty. In fact, most of the citizens don’t even work. They just endlessly amuse themselves. They have to import people who do the real work from India & Pakistian, East African countries, the Phillipines…

hey neo mom –

did you see any burkinis at the beach?

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 5:32 PM:

Lets continue to revisit how Islam respects women. We have already covered rape victims being stoned, schoolgirls allowed to burn to death because they weren’t appropriately covered according to the Islamic morality police, acid being thrown on girls as they attempt to go to school in Afghanistan. Lets return to Saudi Arabia now..

Women are not allowed to drive. They must be covered head to toe. They cannot be in public without a male relative. Penalties for any of the above are quite severe. Like the gang-rape victim that was sentenced to 200 lashes and jail time. for the crime of being in the car of a non-relative male. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/16/world/main3511560.shtml

Female circumcision – google it, as it is far too disgusting to go into here.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 5:26 PM:

ET –

you’re not answering our sincere questions.

Why post the white supremacist site? what about ISNA funding? how about the Q quotes from neo mom? and the treatment of women?

I understand Mohammed was a pedophile – he married Aisha when she was seven, but mercifully held off consummating the marriage until she was nine. How thoughtful of him.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 5:22 PM:

The beach was fabulous… and here is ebbtide still trying to justify the multitude of daily occurance of muslim-inspired violence in the world. With marcedward echoing with some moral equivalence of “well, christians do bad things too!”

There is a difference however, Islam commands either the death or servitude (whether as a dhimmi or a slave) regardless any “nonbeliever” is less than. According to the Qur’an: “Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers” Surah 48:29. “Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush…” Surah 9:5

Maybe ebbtide can also explain away why most holy Muhammad had a slave girl killed for singing a song he didn’t like. Or how it was quite alright for his army to make separate the women in the lands they conquered into groups of house slaves and sex slaves – and how Mohamed got first pick.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 5:17 PM:

Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, the Sufi who has been discredited as a wacko , testified before a State Department open forum that eighty percent of American mosques had extremist leadership.

others know this is just poppycock (as Boyds brother would call it) just as Ahmed Chalabi was the trusted ally of administration hawks and fed them bogus information [poppycock ] that frightened America into a war, by lies and deceit.

READ

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 5:14 PM:

ET –

Not true – you don’t have to be in a gang or the KKK or just some group for survival. Try Prison Fellowship – go to its website – prisonfellowship.org. There are already alternatives to either gangs or becoming Muslim.

Whether Sufi or Wahhabi – Shia or Sunni – the basic tenets are the same, right?

Awaiting your answer to kedavra’s ? – do you receive funding thru ISNA?

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 5:09 PM:

ET – No, I don’t think that of all Muslims. I’ve lived in Muslim countries and have many Muslim friends. Frankly, while most of them don’t support the terrorism, most are too afraid to speak out against it. For good reason. That’s a shame. As Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’

btw- I agree that the US has WAY too many people in prison, many for non-violent crimes. It may be that the current budget crunch is what drives a change in this.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 5:05 PM:

I’m back for a brief period.

ET – why did you post the whty.org site? What does a white supremacy website have to do with Islam? As usual, you are deliberately throwing out the label of “racist” to see if it will stick. It doesn’t. Or are you a racist?

Islam is NOT a RACE – it’s a religion – it’s a choice – it’s a way of life – it’s a belief system. And we have absolutely every right to criticize it and to speak against it, and to criticize its radical expression. There are websites that cater to former Mormons, former Jehovah’s Witnesses, even former Hutterites (don’t expect you have any idea about that one).

Where are your Muslim friends, BTW? Why do they leave you to fight this fight alone (except for a few lefty loons and well-meaning “can’t we all just along” types)? Can’t they say a few words about what they believe on this site?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 5:02 PM:

in many prisons in the USA, you have to be in a group or gang for survival and protection or you are dead or tortured meat [that’s the system folks ugly but true], so Black gang like Bloods or Cripps or Southern Hispanic gang or Northern Hispanic or Aryan White KKK types, etc etc , and that’s one of the reasons that some come to Islam since the Muslim is reasonable in comparison and they are seeking to clean up their live based on faith in God and clean living (some are indeed die hard criminal and come as hypocrites – well known), but not all are “radicals” as you say, for this is just the hate mongering we have come to except from some people. And this “Jamaat ul-Fuqra group is a Sufi group by the way , the dire enemies of Wahhabism, which shows how mixed up you are and ignorant and contradictory.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:58 PM:

ET – do you get any support, training or materials for your prison volunteer activity through ISNA?

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:56 PM:

…”thousands of members of the U.S. branches of Jamaat ul-Fuqra traveled to Pakistan for paramilitary training, but encampments, such as Islamberg, are now capable of providing book-camp training so raw recruits are no longer required to travel abroad amidst the increased scrutiny of post 9/11.

Over the years, numerous members of Jamaat ul-Fuqra have been convicted in US courts of such crimes as conspiracy to commit murder, firebombing, gun smuggling, and workers’ compensation fraud.By 2004 federal investigators uncovered evidence that linked both the DC “sniper killer” John Allen Muhammed and “Shoe Bomber” Richard Reid to the group and reports surfaced that Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl was captured and beheaded in the process of attempting to obtain an interview with Sheikh Gilani in Pakistan.”

Their website is just too modest.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:53 PM:

“I volunteer in the prison system, so don�t tell me about USA justice!”

“Jamaat ul-Fuqra has operational headquarters in New York and openly recruits through various social service organizations in the U.S., including the prison system.Members live in hamaats or compounds, such as Islamberg, where they agree to abide by the laws of Jamaat ul-Fuqra, which are considered to be above local, state and federal authority. Additional hamaats have been established in Hyattsville, Maryland; Red House, Virginia; Falls Church, Virginia; Macon, Georgia; York, South Carolina; Dover, Tennessee; Buena Vista, Colorado; Talihina, Oklahoma; Tulane Country, California; Commerce, California; and Onalaska, Washington. Others are being built, including an expansive facility in Sherman, Pennsylvania.”

“Islamberg is a branch of Muslims of the Americas Inc., a tax-exempt organization formed in 1980 by Pakistani cleric Sheikh Mubarak Ali Gilani, who refers to himself as “the sixth Sultan Ul Faqr,”…

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 4:45 PM:

the ax the prisoners have to grind is for injustices suffered in prison and before they got there: in the court system, by the racist police and guards, the gangs for protection, the list goes on.

Just read about the prison crisis a bit will you,

and as for islamberg comment as radical, well just see their website, and it doesn’t look very radical to me

http://www.islamberg.org/

but for you as if ALL Muslims are by default ,,, as you say from your mouth and we are all witness

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:41 PM:

“in the wake of the arrests of four Muslims in New York who were plotting to blow up two synagogues. At least two of them were converted to Islam and recruited in prison.”

“By 2008, … 40,000 conversions a year were occuring,… The Muslim prison ministry is funded by the Saudi government through the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), an influential front for the promotion of the Wahhabi political, ideological, and theological infrastructure in the US and Canada. This finding is supported by Abdel al-Jubeir, foreign policy spokesman for Saudi King Abdullah. Warith Deen Umar, founder of the National Association of Muslim Chaplains, serves as a prototype for his fellow clerics. In one of his sermons at the Otisville Federal Facility, Umar informed his prison flock that the terrorist attacksof 9/11 were justified, and that the 19 hijackers should be remembered as Allah�s �martyrs.””

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 4:38 PM:

I didn’t say “work” in but I have seen in them (never as prisoner) , and have seen how so many are oppressed blacks incarcerated for petty drug crime, as if white folks don’t do drugs???? Madoff goes to a country club in Butner NC, and those poor souls are incarcerated in huge numbers in terrible places (like riot in CA) often since they cant afford some slick lawyer.

The prison populations ins the USA is huge and most minority, and US has 751 people in prison or jail for every 100,000 in population, 5 times more than any other country, an most are minorities.

we certainly have a moral sue here.

And you say … “ties to terrorist entities.” for you just being a Muslim does, I guess, but that’s not what Obama and the administration is saying

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 4:24 PM:

Why the 100 years war, why not so many others extended European wars, but then again that’s “old” history, whereas the recent history of wars, and persecutions and “interventions” are still being felt dearly and they are the ones we and our parents and grandparent feel deeply about, since they still have the wounds to show for it. Wounds are hard evidence. That’s why the words like Albright’s (below) hurt so much, and like cover ups about the white prosperous used in Fallujah and Gaza.

And kedavra clearly you do not know any original sources but just hate monger web sites of Zionist inspired people, for the Jizya was as I said below, and Shareeha is for justice and not criminal misbehavior. Just as Judaic law and Ten Commandments is scared for Jews. Now Secular Law allows adultery, fornication, and other abominations, etc because people are “modern.”

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:20 PM:

“Many Imams (Muslim leaders) are hired based upon recommendations from organizations with clear ties to terrorist entities. Wahhabi-trained Imams have gained a monopoly on prisons and teach their radical interpretations of Islam to new converts. When no federally-trained Imams are available, prisoners themselves often lead their communities without direct supervision. Convicts are supposed to be learning the tools to return to society as mentally-stable individuals, offering positive contributions, and avoiding further criminal behavior. Instead, many inmates are learning and practicing Radical Islam. Upon their release from prison, these former convicts return to society with an ‘ax to grind’ and a new found perversion of religion which preaches Jihad against western values. Many former inmates prefer to stay in an Islamic community setting. These individuals have been recruited to Radical Muslim enclaves such as Islamberg, NY.”

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:16 PM:

ET – so you are a muslim who works in our prison system. Is it your goal to achieve what the imams in the NY prison system have? Of converting and radicalizing prisoners and getting them to start waging jihad? A number of our recent interrupted terrorist plots involved graduates from these programs. Are you paid by the state like their imams were?

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:12 PM:

The real story here is Hamdy Radwan, who stood up for moderation and engagement at no small personal risk. I applaud and respect him for that. I watched a video of one man in Colorado who had written a letter to his local paper condemning the 9/11 attacks. That Friday at his mosque he was surrounded by over a dozen, including his imams, who all threatened and yelled at him. He was terrified. The threat he was most terrified of was the imam yelling that he was not a good muslim repeatedly. He said that this was the equivalent of being declared an apostate and issuing a personal fatwa on him. I don’t know if that was true, but this was one terrified fellow. I think he went into hiding, but I never heard what happened to him. Anyone?

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 4:07 PM:

ME “kedavra you don’t know what you’re talking about. If Muslims were supposed to kill all non-Muslims why did the Ottomans allow Jews and Christians to practice their religion freely inside their borders? Please there are many books on the history of Islam at the library – go read some :-)!”

Why don’t you start by actually reading my posts. I said that the in the muslim-conquered worlds either you were killed, “converted”, or paid a punishing jizya tax (and were treated as dogs, humialated in public, beaten when collected etc – it’s where the Nazis got the forced wearing of the Star of David from to ensure the Jews were readily identifiable). I also said that for any laws other than Sharia were a blasphemy. What law do you think ruled in the muslim-conquered lands? They did “tolerate” other religions – but that’s relative. No new churches, no rebuilding when the mobs burnt them, punishing taxes, and kidnapped kids all lead to dramatic decline in those religions under their rul

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 3:47 PM:

adreamerinraleigh , my Christian grandparent can testify as true to what you said about the Muslims world as wonderful since they were travelers and saw and felt it and told me about it when i was young, and please people of these comments as adreamerinraleigh pointed out, realize that Zionism is the issue not Judaism or Jews,

and see my quote of former Israeli Prime Minister Shamir below, [lots more of quote like these by others like Menachem Begin, Sharon, etc, using or promoting the – ouch – “terrorism” word and idea proudly] and compare with Elias Chacour in “Blood Brothers”

and … marcedward1 ,, we’ll leave to the readers to google it

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 3:37 PM:

ebbtide, feel free to remind those who love the religion of ‘the prince of peace’ about the 30 years war. A christian on christian war that took the lives of 1/2 the people in the German provinces. A few more million killed in the name of Jesus.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 3:31 PM:

opps not Debrah, but TOPASSISTANT , (sorry missed it)

Am I one what? say it please. Don’t be shy if you ask ask clearly and don’t beat around the bush.

Am i a Muslim, of course I am. Is that a crime? Or do u have something sinister in mind by asking that? spill it out, or gush as you say.

Who do I represent and who do you represent? I said about myself. just read!

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adreamerinraleigh wrote on August, 16 3:28 PM:

Debrah, you forget that as late as the 1960s you could drive your car or hike all over the Arab and Islamic world and encounter a hospitable, peace loving people. In fact, I talked to a couple who did just that. It was the Israelis who drew first blood and introduced terrorism into the region with our support. This is a fact, although I do support the Williamsburg concept of Israel as an ancient Jewish homeland within its 1948 borders. Your sentimentality about Jews as a group is counter-productive. If you judge them individually you will serve their collective interests more effectively. Good Jew: Judah Benjamin. Troublesome Jew: Lazar Kaganovich, Bernie Madoff and so forth (including the ones that turned the South into their second Berlin after World War II). However, I do give you credit for more tact in regard to Arabs than I would Erica Jong.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 3:24 PM:

neo_mom not to call you ignorant, but if you piled up the dead killed in the name of Jesus next to the dead killed in the name of Allah, I’d bet the ‘killed in Jesus’s name’ would be a lot higher. Christianity has nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to murder – they’re Number 1! Heck, Erik Rudolph had no problem with murdering in Jesus’s name. Wasn’t the murderer of Dr. Tiller a Christian? Islam, Christianity and Judism are all ‘war’ religions once you judge them by their behavior.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 3:13 PM:

Debrah, Am I one what? say it please. Don’t you read my responses?? Just scroll down for answers.

I am only a lone writer and researcher, and represent only myself, no one else, but i do not like lies and misrepresentations of Islam, my faith. If you bring one video of some sick person etc, then we will bring one also since youtube is full of them, either way, like the acceptable southern phenomenon of lynching not so long ago.

Thus, its best for us to talk with reason and scholarship, reflect on the realities we face today in the world, and remember history and repair damage in relations. One must know a bit of history before talking. I wonder if you know what it’s like to be a black man in a strange neighborhood and see the confederate flag, or an Indian and hear “the only good Indian is a …” smirk, said by Teddy bear Roosevelt, by the way, during the time of many of our grandparents, mine at least) See Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee by Dee Brown.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 3:07 PM:

TOPASSISTANT judging an entire religion or people based on the actions of an extremists is stupid and it makes you a bigot. By your reasoning, if you’re a Christian, you must also be a pedophile…or maybe you are? I feel sorry for any children related to you!

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 2:46 PM:

kedavra you don’t know what you’re talking about. If Muslims were supposed to kill all non-Muslims why did the Ottomans allow Jews and Christians to practice their religion freely inside their borders? Please there are many books on the history of Islam at the library – go read some :-)!

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TOPASSISTANT wrote on August, 16 2:44 PM:

ebbtide

YOU STILL DID NOT RESPOND TO THE VIDEO of an old woman talking another woman, a mentally ill woman, into being a suicide bomber. Why do you not respond, not gust just like the others you represent.

ARE YOU ONE, ARE YOU?

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 2:40 PM:

fcmmark wrote

‘When will people see Islam as it really is. It is a violent religion that truly hates Christianity and will do anything in its power to destroy a nation, people, etc. who will not bow to the false god of Allah.’

Islam is a continuation of Christianity. Moreover under the Ottomans, a Muslims empire, Christians and Jews were allowed to practice their religion freely. By comparisan, Christian kingdoms regularly exhiled or killed Jews and Muslims. You don’t know what you are talking about.

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marcedward1 wrote on August, 16 2:33 PM:

Debrah Jews have suffered far more than under Christian governments than they ever did under Muslim governments. As for your statement ‘The Israeli people must fight every day for their survival inside the steaming cauldron that is the Middle East.’ – utter crapola! Israel has one of the most expensive military’s in the world, period, and on MY tab. And yes, we know that Israel has no respect for the law, especially international law, but I don’t think that’s something I’d brag about. Here’s a thought – Israel and the Palestinians can kille eachother till the goats come home, but can you do it without US welfare payments????

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 2:29 PM:

Debrah ,, see what i wrote a while ago ,,, please scroll down, and reflect,,, and read what Father Abuna Elias Chacour in

“Blood Brothers”

wrote, a moving personal account of a dedicated Christian,,,

….At the age of eight years, he experienced the tragedy of his people….

Get it you will like it!

READ. THINK.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 2:23 PM:

by the way,

In Raleigh NC a while ago there was a proud march

I hate to see that the next proud march will be from the looks of some comments here.

Want to see the proud march:

http://whty.org/

blowback, of a time that we all remember only too well, and they say it’s on the rise!

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Debrah wrote on August, 16 2:22 PM:

Muslims and many others around the world deeply resent the Jewish people.

Jews are such a small group on the globe, but they have not only survived, but thrived, amid forces wishing for their complete annihilation.

One has only to view the oasis that is Israel. The Israeli people must fight every day for their survival inside the steaming cauldron that is the Middle East.

Much of Islam still embraces a 7th century mindset.

The Israeli people have had to deal with what America was dealt on 9/11 for decades.

They understand that adherence to the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Muslims must do a better job of distinguishing themselves from the radical element among them which is bent on the destruction of this country and Western civilization.

As Golda Meir opined: “We will not die so that the world will think well of us.”

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 2:19 PM:

ET – Your comments are precisely why I’m not too optimistic about that reform.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 2:07 PM:

ONE what ???,,, TOPASSISTANT

come out and say it clearly

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 2:05 PM:

kedavra wrote

” violence is institutionalized in much of the Islamic culture” WOW

Remember “The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order” (1996) by Samuel P. Huntington, a Muslim basher if there ever was one but note that he said: “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion… but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do. (P. 51)

American Holocaust by David Stannard documents the genocide of American Indians as the worst in Human history (a debatable point).

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:57 PM:

Muslims do not have problems with Jews and Christians, as mentioned before, but only with Zionists and Crusaders bent on exterminating them, and if we want to point to inflammatory clips and so on , we can as others here have also, so look at this “celebration” tee shirts celebrating bombing Mosques, killing women and children and other non combatants in Gaza etc

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/20/israeli-army-tshirts-mock_n_177574.html

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 1:56 PM:

ET – if you speak out against it – kudos to you – you are one of the few.

My point is that this violence is institutionalized in much of the Islamic culture, governance, and religion.

It will take a concerted effort from those within Islam to reform it.

But acknowedging, not apologizing for it, is the first step toward that reform.

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TOPASSISTANT wrote on August, 16 1:51 PM:

ebbtide

The videos show Muslims killing Muslims, Muslims torturing Muslim women, Muslims running a rod up the bottom of a Muslim man. YES, THESE ARE HATE VIDEOS. If you had taken the time to watch the short video, it was Muslim woman admitting she talked a mentally ill woman into being a suicide bomber, killing herself and others

ebbtie, ARE YOU ONE, ARE YOU?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:49 PM:

AgentPierce ,, note that I bring moderate points, books, scholarly opinions, breaking news of national concern, and information from original sources, and they bring hate mongering websites and blatant lies to stir up hate against all Muslims.

The point needs to be remembered that family, friends, neighbors, associates and acquaintances all testify to the upright character of these men, and especially the repeated news items witnessing the decent morals and manners of Daniel Boyd, for all those that are following this story in depth, and not sucked into the vortex of corporate sensationalism and the bogus FBI indictments, and hate war mongering

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:43 PM:

Trouble with covered Muslims ,,,, hmm,,,

One of over a billion Muslims

Hmm,,,

Personally I speak out against suicide bombing and have written scholarly research on the issue, but this is cultural religious point of those in desperation, as were the Japanese kamikaze in WWII, (my name here as ebbtide by the way relates to my uncle who died in WWII in the pacific theater – side point).

This website quoted is another hate mongering site with the like of Wilders etc, and note this post for the video is from “By: ChristianResistance “ and thus we return to Erik Prince Blackwater crusader issue of murder in Iraq etc.

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AgentPierce wrote on August, 16 1:39 PM:

sky and neo-mom …… I’m sure its exhausting to debate anything “religious” in this forum. At least if you do so from a Christian POV. Your predictable adversaries are well-armed and get quite enthusiastic when they can regurgitate the talking points they’ve memorized.

Your willingness to debate them has a value. That value is not in “winning” the debate. NO ONE ever wins an anonymous Internet debate. Rule #1 – last one to post declares himself “winner”. Ergo most such contests end at 3 AM when one combatant falls asleep.

The value in what you are doing is in having your opponents state their absurdums and for “lurkers” to read them. “Normal folks” don’t see that silliness that often. Thanks for what you are doing.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 1:37 PM:

ShockedBanger – so why did an unbeliever have to come to Afghanistan to do this? Where are the other billion plus Muslims trying to do the same with their radical brethren?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:33 PM:

The ‘three cups of tea’ issue is again in a Shia area as opposed to the majority of Sunnis, and stirs up problems of sects, (like in Iraq where US empowered the Shia) and if you read “Anthropology of Islamist Terror” in the “American Interest” Summer 2006, you will see that insurgent movements who are fighting occupation often resist colonial encroachment to their culture, so the point on ‘three cups of tea’ is off the mark here.

Some blowback: Remember the Taliban eradicated opium, but of course that infuriated the CIA etc.

See Dark Alliance : The CIA, the Contras, and the Crack Cocaine Explosion by Gary Webb

And Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press by Alexander Cockburn, Jeffrey St. Clair

Cocaine Politics: Drugs, Armies, and the CIA in Central America by Peter Dale Scott

And on and on

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GetSerious wrote on August, 16 1:31 PM:

I am curious about the “dirty dirty Irish” allusion. Can it be explained and 20 civil words or less?

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 1:31 PM:

sky5714 – what?? I truly don’t understand what you’re trying to say, but you are obviously stuck on this one point. If you’re Jewish, don’t be offended. I have Jewish friends who say there are too many Jews on the news getting in trouble.

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adreamerinraleigh wrote on August, 16 1:31 PM:

Paineintheneck wrote: “This has got me thinking. I have developed a hypothesis: ‘All people within a group are not necessarily the same’. Or, said another way ‘people are individuals’. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this curiosity?”

Paine, some traditions make the adaptation better than others, better than I! For example, I keep waiting to find a dumb, tetchy, dogmatic Indian (from India). It has yet to happen. Despite their hordes, poverty, ancient religion, and colonial captivity, I always feel I’m talking to some von-European though with a tan. Have you noticed this? Maybe it’s just a class characteristic of the ones who immigrate here.

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TOPASSISTANT wrote on August, 16 1:26 PM:

You might want to watch this one to see why we Christians have a problem with covered Muslims.

http://truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=2757

Visit http://truthtube.tv

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Ithinkimlosin_it4 wrote on August, 16 1:24 PM:

I don’t know where anyone got that the origin of wearing head coverings and long garb was meant for anything in the middle east except to protect oneself from the elements. Then, they decied to make it a religeous thing, so they could exercise dominance over women. It is absolutely ridiculous how the dominant gender tries to cling to their useless traditions. I also fail to see how one religeous zealot can lay claim that there are issues in one religeon that are not present in their own. None of it justifies the murders and other atrocities committed against humans in the name of faith. Nobody should have to die for anyone else to go to heaven or wherever it is you assume you will go after death. That won’t happen…ever.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:24 PM:

Neo mom – you said:

“….(that he killed when finished, but I digress)…”

What a blatant lie! Without shame as if people have cannot use simple reason to look up history from proper sources!

The likes of ” Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them) by Al Franken, (now senator D MN), exposing Fox news and Limbaugh etc etc, but of course the liars are still popular since they preach to the choir at Fox and buddies.

His wife, Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, remained all her life in deep love for him, and he for her, and she lived until old age as one of the greatest scholars of Islam.

Do not lie so much it only brings shame on yourself.

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 1:23 PM:

kedavra – Did you see the CNN special on Thursday about Afghanistan? The man who wrote “Three Cups of Tea” opened schools all over the country, something our military could not do for some reason, and made friends and even “de-radicalized” alot of the clerics. After this, the military started following his lead. One man did all of this! Most of the tribes in Afghanistan wanted him to set up schools, for girls, for everyone. But the Taliban (bad people, so nobody thinks I am an apologist) tried to stop them. They are a violent gang, running the place. And security guards are told to shoot to kill if the Taliban tries to stop them. Now this sounds like most of the people want normalcy to me.

neo_mom – you are TOO sure of yourself. Travel outside the US a bit.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 1:16 PM:

Just thought I’d take a peek before leaving, and I see the truth comes out.

shockedbyanger says:

“the papers are filled with violent acts taking place in America, many times against OUR women and children, by Christians.” my emphasis

Still no answer to my ?, shocked: what jews do you see all the time committing crimes? re my earlier post

Spreading more taqiyya, I see. You would say absolutely anything. You really care nothing about the truth. You’re fooling the dhimmis, but there are people who know exactly what you’re doing.

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 1:15 PM:

neo_mom – I did say these things were bad – re-read my post. You are not reading for content, but just reading what you want to see. And Prince and others DO use their religion to justify acts. I know it’s hard to realize that evil goes on “in your backyard” too, but so is life…

ps – Have a nice day at the beach.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:15 PM:

opps sorry about spelling check – will be slower and check next time

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 1:14 PM:

ShockedBanger – “These people don’t need religion to tell then to torture, molest, and kill men, women and children.”

But these terrorists are explicitly pursuing their violent acts in the name of and to propagate Islam. There are countries governed by Sharia who share their view and support this terror. The TV airwaves are filled with the most vile hatespewing Islamic clerics who instigate and echo this. The schools/preschools are full of teachers who indoctinate their children from infancy in this. The culture celebrates those “bad” people as heroes and martyrs. The “good” muslims don’t speak out and condemn these viles acts – and the few that do are declared apostates and have death fatwas on their heads. So I don’t buy the “random acts of violence of a few bad people” garbage.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:12 PM:

All Muslim scholars in Saudi Arabia and over the world said they were criminals and FOOLS for this act of this acts, as the original sources allow in time of duress ,,,, (I can cite sources if you like)

Thus thisact of stopping the girls was foolish by all schalrs of islam READ what the schalsrs said and don’t just pick and choose some foolish crimes.

I guess by this mentality, Abu Ghuraib was a few bad apples, or official memo of ‘psychological stress’ as one euphemistically might call torture by Geneva conventions.

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 1:12 PM:

skye5714 – Jesus whipped the moneychangers out of the temples.

As I said before, the Bible has many passages of violence. And, FYI, the Bible also told women to cover their hair, and they did in Churches in the US until the 1960’s. Did you ever see Hasidic Jews? They cover from head to toe. Why no comments of this? Even secular Jews think they are a bit nuts. They are following the old testament.

Just leave everyone alone. If someone breaks the law, they should be punished. That’s it. This philosophy of “we’re right, they’re wrong” has led the US military to act in ways that could be considered a “cleansing” of sorts. If the founding fathers could see this all…

Have a good day, and try to give people the benefit of the doubt…

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 1:10 PM:

Prn – don’t hold your breath from the apologists here.

shocked – there is a difference between a so-called christian killing someone (i.e. the BTK killer in Kansas) and someone killing in the NAME of their religion (i.e. the suicide bomber walking into a market and detonating).

See?

I don’t see why you and ebbtide would be so upset about the sale of a young girl when you refuse to denounce the stoning of a 13-year old rape victim. Mohammed himself had child “brides” (that he killed when finished, but I digress). Child “brides” are also very common in Islamic countries. But you don’t condemn those either.

If its bad for Eric Prince (I agree) who is being investigated and most likely prosecuted, why is it not bad for the rest?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:06 PM:

OK

sky5714

here is one hadith of Sunnah

On the Innovation and Idolatry in the Burdah Poem of al-Busiri… etc meaning deviant Muslims

لَعَنَ اللَّهُ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى اتَّخَذُوا قُبُورَ أَنْبِيَائِهِمْ مَسَاجِدَ . قَالَتْ : وَلَوْلَا ذَلِكَ أُبْرِزَ قَبْرُهُ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ خُشِيَ أَنْ يُتَّخَذَ مَسْجِدًا

“Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians that they took the graves of their prophets as Masaajid (places of prostration and worship mosques).

Reported by al-Bukhari, Muslim and others.

Want more original sources. What’s your “original” source?

See that the curse is specific, like Jesus’ to the moneychangers is specific for moneychangers, usury (Fed reserve and banking nowadays) etc

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 1:03 PM:

OK – one more as I’m packing the cooler…

How is this not “policy”?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm

excerpt…

“Saudi Arabia’s religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.”

yup – respect for women and girls and all…..

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 1:01 PM:

neo_mom – the papers are filled with violent acts taking place in America, many times against our women and children, by Christians. These people don’t need religion to tell then to torture, molest, and kill men, women and children. Yes, there are bad, bad Muslims, but there are bad, bad Christians and bad, bad Jews and Hindus, etc…. There are bad people in the world. And as I said before, all of the religious books have violence. Bad people can take their cues from anywhere. And you shouldn’t be so sarcastic with ebbtide – he’s right about Eric Prince, “The super Chrisitian” as he thinks of himself. And his acts are all in the name of religion, according to him. This includes murder and the sale of young girls (think 13 years old) as prostitutes for his men in Iraq! Now I know Jesus never said this, but he and his followers believe that this is spoken somewhere in the Bible!

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Prn13Norm wrote on August, 16 1:00 PM:

Perhaps we will hear an apology for the Christian village in Pakistan that was burned and the women and children tortured to death while the Muslim police watched and refused to help.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 1:00 PM:

neo_mom:

you bring criminals and acts of break-down of law and order not promoted by nay Muslim scholars and i bring POLICY!

like Madeleine Albright said when she asked by Stahl, “We have heard that half a million children have died [as a result of sanctions in Iraq]. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?” Albright replied: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.”

Half million children!!!!!!!!!!

And like Erik Prince and his mercenaries for official hire all over the world, and the CIA “black” sites of euphemistically called ,, oh you get it,,,, new or neo as you wish

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 12:59 PM:

ebbtide – I am reading “original” verses – in English, not Arabic. Here’s the whole verse: “When the last moment of the life of Allah’s Apostle came he started putting his ‘Khamisa’ on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, “May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.

Jesus didn’t beat the moneychangers in the temple or kill them – and he spoke out against stoning women to death.

I’m leaving too – it’s beautiful outside.

I challenge you who disagree with neo-mom, kedavra and me – go back & read all the posts – go to the websites that all (inc. ebbtide) of us cited. This is an important subject, and we should all be informed and educated on it.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 12:51 PM:

Cato –

Thanks for the concession – I’ll ignore the Palin dig.

But really, couldn’t you consider what I proposed earlier – instead of just saying blindly that all religions are equal, or really all about peace, or they’re all rotten, or whatever, why shouldn’t we evaluate them by their results?

I know you & others will say Christians are hypocrites or whatever – you’ll ignore the fight to end slavery (that goes on even now), the orphanages, the huge outpouring of charity to the desperately poor in 3rd world countries. And one can always find 1 example to make it look like all adherents are corrupt or whatever. I’m talking general tendencies, just within the last 50 or 100 yrs (after oil wealth preferable, so can’t use poverty as excuse).

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 12:51 PM:

whyy did he curse them – sky5714 – finish the quote please and don’t cut off texts from their context.. If you read ORIGINAL sources at all! [apparently you only read the hate monger websites so there’s little hope for reasonable responses from you]

….cursed for building graves on top of the burial spots of the prophets, and thus this is a curse for those foolish Muslims who do grave worship of the prophets and so called saints. Islam is against all poltythsim.

Jesus cursed the money changers and used VIOLENCE against them so thus should promote that onto the federal reserve and bankers and wall street fat cats, insurance robber barons, etc, who are getting trillions of TAXPAYERS money (see what Ron Paul says) so they remain rich while we suffer

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 12:49 PM:

cato – where is your compassion for all of those I just listed as examples of the peaceful muslims and their respect for women and girls?

I’d love to stay and chat, but it is far too nice of an afternoon to sit inside anymore… off to the beach. Please continue to make stuff up as you go….

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 12:46 PM:

ebbtide –

Let me type slower…

neo_mom = new_mom

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 12:46 PM:

shocked…. you made my point. I agree with the live and let live approach. If someone wants to be a muslim – I really don’t care – until they either agree with, or certainly don’t speak out against the fairly large group of muslims that want to subvert women and kill those that don’t agree with them. Read the article of which started this kerfluffle. Read the thread.

Where is the equivalence to stoning to death a 13-year old girl who was raped on the way to her grandmother’s house shouldn’t be condemned? How about honor killings? Or the family burned alive over a rumor of defiling the Koran? Or the girls allowed to burn to death in their school in Saudi Arabia because their morality police said they weren’t appropriately dressed to be rescued and brought into the public? Or the Taliban bomb and acid attacks on schools/girls? Yeah – lot’s of respect for females… Please point out to me where Christians and Jews do this today in the name of their religion?

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 12:45 PM:

shockedbyanger – Don’t be so hard on neo (new) -mom, she has a master’s degree – but not in compassion, understanding and humility.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 12:41 PM:

neo_ mom

“a certain religion believes that their beliefs are more sacred and deserve special protection…”

hmmm,,,,

sounds like Erick Prince and Blackwater as mentioned previously, and add to that the entire neo-conservative and religious right wing of the Republican party and their explosion of influence.

ever read

Chris Hedges: Americas Holy Warriors Christian right

or

other book on subject???

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 12:39 PM:

shockedby anger – “who do I see on the news commiting the most crimes, against children particulary? Christians and Jews, and Jews are only 5% of the population of the US and are on TV all the time for breaking laws, etc… “

Please document your belief that Jews are on TV all the time for breaking laws etc.

What is far more relevant (but doesn’t get the kaboom factor that posts like yours get), is to determine what percentage of the population is believing, practicing Muslim or Amish or Hasidic Jew or whatever, and what their respective rates of violent acts would be, and those directly attributable to reliance on what they would consider to be holy scriptural directives. You’d have to discount the certifiable loons though.

And you’re ignoring what neo-mom said – that she didn’t care what someone else believes. Just try being tolerant and open-minded to new ideas.

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 12:38 PM:

sky5714 – I stand corrected regarding Lisa Murkowski. I had forgotten that her dad, former republican senator then governor would have stooped to nepotism – I didn’t think republicans were capable of that. That move infuriated Alaskans and they voted him out; look what they got instead, a narcissistic quitter. Kinda makes Mike and Mary’s shenanigans look like child’s play.

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 12:37 PM:

And by the way, the title of this article is not new news. All religions are divided into camps which practice in various ways. Look at the violence that went on for years in Northern Ireland!

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 12:34 PM:

Skye5714 – Yes, Islam does say this. You just don’t want to believe it. Did you ever read the Bible. Just as much violence.

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 12:32 PM:

P.S. – ALL RELIGIONS believe they are the “true” religion. Again, read some books and travel a bit.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 12:31 PM:

ebbtide says: “Our religion of Islam commands us to be respectful to Christians and Jews who are tolerate to us.”

No it doesn’t. You just keep repeating the same thing, and repackage it, to make it look like you’re engaging in dialogue, when you’re not.

The Jews call Ezra a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (9:30) And in Bukhari 8:427), one of the last things Muhammad ever said on his deathbed was “May Allah curse the Jews and Christians.”

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 12:31 PM:

Neo con’s were in power in the bush years, so neo_mom comes a bit close. That’s what – I think – he is getting to, what exactly are you new for neo mom, and the issue is not definition of neo ?

Neoconservative influence was instrumental in getting the United States to war under false pretexts for the war with Iraq (pretexts is too weak a term – lies actually, like in lies and deceit of high treason, much more important than Clinton’s lies in thew monisky impeachment farce).

OBAMA was a patriot for voting against this war based on lies, but the consequences are the empowerment of Iran, Hizbullah and the Shias in the areas by USA support of Shiism in Iraq. READ. THINK.

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 12:30 PM:

Calm down neo-mom – I knew I would get a response from you. Too much caffeine today? The problem is you can’t come to terms with the fact that people are different, have different points of view, and will live differently from you. Those differences should be respected. Did you ever read any documents the founding fathers of this county based our constitution on? Study some history and switch to decaf.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 12:28 PM:

and shocked….

I don’t care what religion anybody is – or isn’t. Its far too personal. I just pay attention when a large group of a certain religion believes that their beliefs are more sacred and deserve special protection (see the example of the defilement of the Koran in earlier posts) and then also believe that those that don’t share those beliefs should be converted, subverted, or killed.

btw – if you haven’t picked up on that you can’t trust what is reported in the news you haven’t been paying attention to anything.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 12:21 PM:

ROTHFLMAO!!

I’ve got one side calling me stupid and scary and the other calling me an adulterer promoting homosexuality and abortion!!

I must be hitting pretty close to the target to be taking that much flak!

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shockedbyanger wrote on August, 16 12:18 PM:

Wow, all of the hate (neo mom is scary – especially is she really is someone’s mom!) is just a repeat of history in America. Every wave of immigrants that come in are made out to be evil. Everyone calm down and realize there are bad and good everywhere. I was raised Christian but who do I see on the news commiting the most crimes, against children particulary? Christians and Jews, and Jews are only 5% of the population of the US and are on TV all the time for breaking laws, etc… Ever get a glimpse of the Talmud? If you want hate speach against Christians, read some translations online. (It’s hard to get a translation otherwise. Weird, huh?) Everyone must be based on individual behavior. This “group think” is dangerous. Painintheneck, you are a voice of reason, far from a pain! America, the “Christian” country is constantly at war with someone, killing innocents over and over. Think about what religion is actually a religion of peace!?! None, I say. Live and let live.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 12:18 PM:

ebbtide –

The US government overpays EVERYBODY, they have (I’ll say almost because they may have gotten lucky somewhere) almost never come in on or under budget on anything they pay for. That’s why we would rather they scale back their interferrence into our lives. They couldn’t manage a lemonade stand effectively. So I certainly wouldn’t read to much into that aspect.

But seriously – if any nut job can even be remotely tied – or inaccurately tied – to “right wing extremists” it is the lead story on every news cast and front page of the newspapers. Like the guy who shot up the Holocaust Museum in DC – who was actually more of a leftist…

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 12:16 PM:

Muslims respect their women very much and protect them from those that would molest, and Muslim women wear Hijab for a devotion like what I said about Christian wearing modest cloths, but i guess thats 8th century also.

All Christians preachers and stations scream night and day about the loss of wholesome family life in the materialistic hedonistic society of today, but fornication, adultery, homosexuality, abortion are all legal and lawful and even promoted by advertisements 21st century for neo_mom and others

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 12:13 PM:

Ah – Cato is another Alinsky acolyte… We have seen many of them this morning…

Lets turn this around, shall we?

Cato – tell that who worship at the alter of political correctness and moral equivalency. After reading many of your posts you are a certified, uneducated whack job. I’m sure you get your news and views from patriots such as Sean Penn, Danny Glover, and George Clooney and the botox-poisoned MSNBC not-babes or the Daily Kos. When are people going to learn to think for themselves.

Not that I owe you an explanation… I have a master’s degree – I just happen to have recovered from the indoctrination centers. neo also is defined as “new” – you may want to actually pick up a dictionary.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 12:07 PM:

Cato –

Your insults only serve to make you look ridiculous. As I recall, you called me a moron for suggesting that former Alaska Sen. Frank Murkowski appointed his daughter Lisa to his unexpired term when he won election as governor of Alaska. You insult people you disagree with, without checking facts. Of course, when I proved you wrong, you had disappeared and had nothing to say.

If you really cared about the truth, and indeed started thinking for yourself, instead of marching lockstep with Obama and the daily kos and the daily beast and the washington post and air america (oh that’s right – went bankrupt due to lack of loon support), you just might learn something.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 12:05 PM:

talk about cover up

You bring me one sick crack pot which WAS reported , and we will remind you about Erick Prince who headed a multi billion Blackwater International (Xe) which the mainstream NEWS has been VERY VERY quiet about, that he -to quote- “views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe,” and that Prince’s companies “encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life.”

where is that in the mainstream news????

One article about this company says “Audit Finds That U.S. Overpaid Blackwater JUNE 17, 2009”

just search about it

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 12:00 PM:

… “I have chosen the particular location on the University campus as my target since I know there is a high likelihood that I will kill several people before being killed myself or jailed and sent to prison if Allah wills. Allah’s commandments are never to be questioned and all of Allah’s commandments must be obeyed. Those who violate Allah’s commandments and purposefully follow human fabrication and falsehood as their religion will burn in fire for eternity in accordance with Allah’s will.”

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/19782_UNC-Chapel_Hill_Attackers_Islamic_Justification

Over & over again, the media reported that an SUV mowed down those kids. That’s like saying a gun killed somebody. It’s the person who uses the instrument that’s important.

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 11:59 AM:

neo_mom – I’d rather tell that to folks who profess to be Christian; beware of nutty fundamentalists as they are far more dangerous in the US. Oh, by way, does neo in your screen name stand for neo-nazi, neo-con or misspelled nimcompoop? After reading many of your posts, you are a certified, uneducated whack job. I’m sure you get your news and views from patriots such as Rush, Beck, Hannity and the blond, hair-sprayed, Fox info-babes. When are people going to learn to think for themselves?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 11:59 AM:

I have lived near Amish and have great respect for them, as for all people of faith. Our religion of Islam commands us to be respectful to Christians and Jews who are tolerate to us.

DC sniper was NOT a Muslim but a deviant sect that says black man are gods (5 per centers) and other wierd sectarian notions, sort of like Farakhan and his Elijah as prophet and some man called fard as god who sent him

READ! just dont spout off please.

Why is the fact that others in my family are reborn etc hilarious,,, they live very serious lives of faith and devotion like the Amish. Many people mock the Amish also.

What really is scary is the White militias, as in the news –

title: “Officials see rise in militia groups across U.S.” AP- yahoo- Aug 12,2009

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 11:58 AM:

The mainstream media, including the N&O, routinely covers up instances of violence committed in the name of Islam. Did they ever publish the letter from Taheriazad, the UNC-CH student who mowed down 6 students? I don’t recall but I doubt it. Here’s an excerpt:

“In the Qur’an, Allah states that the believing men and women have permission to murder anyone responsible for the killing of other believing men and women. I know that the Qur’an is a legitimate and authoritative holy scripture since it is completely validated by modern science and also mathematically encoded with the number 19 beyond human ability. After extensive contemplation and reflection, I have made the decision to exercise the right of violent retaliation that Allah has given me to the fullest extent to which I am capable at present. …”

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Ithinkimlosin_it4 wrote on August, 16 11:55 AM:

Religeon doesn’t kill people. People kill people. Whatever ignorance these people are on, they need to get off if it and take something for the voices in their heads.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:54 AM:

No, by not wearing a hijab (or burka if you prefer) we are not “addicted to nudism and pornography” we simply choose to live in the 21st (not the 8th) century and respect women instead of treating them like property. Actually less than property – even livestock has more value than a woman in places with Sharia Law.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 11:49 AM:

now about Muslim Hijab,,,(head covering), have to defend that now too since people mock ,,,,

to qoute

Traditionally, in Christianity, women were enjoined to cover their heads in church, just as it was (and still is) customary for men to remove their hat as a sign of respect. This practice is based on the Bible (Corinthians: 11:4-16)…the custom continues of women covering their heads in church (or even when praying privately at home)….a woman who becomes a nun is said “to take the veil”. … and many monastic orders of women have retained the veil…” READ history.!!!!

So its part of Christianity

but the American society is now addicted to nudism and pornography etc.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 11:48 AM:

ebbtide –

A “reborn evangelical”? You are unbelievable! Hilarious!

You must mean “born-again” evangelical. You need to study up more on the correct terminology to use on us “dhimmis”.

Dhim·mi (dîm-mî or zîm-mî) – An Islamic term that refers to a subjugated non-Muslim person living in a Muslim society. Second-class status is confirmed by the legal system and dhimmis do not share the rights of their Muslim rulers.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 11:46 AM:

The amount of Islamic-related violence in this country is very under-reported. Does anyone remember why the DC Sniper did what he did and where he trained? Look it up – see if was ever reported in the MSM. His trial transcripts make terrifying reading. How about our own little UNC-CH sidewalk driver? There are literally scores of such attacks where the press intentionally never reports the back story because it’s not PC. Now we have plenty of nut jobs of all religions, but the jihad one sure seems to have the momentum over the others.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 11:45 AM:

wow sky your right

now you see it now you don’t

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:44 AM:

Cato08 –

Tell that to the family of the army recruiter killed in Arkansas a few weeks back, and to the one who survived.

They were shot completely in the name of Islam.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 11:43 AM:

The historical context is in the Sunnah as all scholars of Islam know, and I cant be called to give lessons here in comments .

I am just responding to lies about Islam.

I was a Christians for twenty years of my life, even an ‘alter boy’ [my Mom and brother are “reborn evangelicals”] and I would not lie about Christianity, so as long as people do not lie we can discuss other more important things.

But when lies and malignant falsehoods are promoted, then a faithful Muslim will always respond, just as

if someone misrepresented the faith in Judaism or Christianity and a faithful Jew and Christian would feel the need to respond.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 11:42 AM:

neo-mom –

he’s on the phone with the N&O right now whining about religious intolerance.

Let’s see how fast the comments disappear on this story.

Let’s see, so far 3 stories (on the 8 alleged terrorists etc.) have been “disappeared”, plus numerous comments.

As I’ve said so obnoxiously before, censorship reflects fear on the part of the censorer.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:42 AM:

TA really threw a grenade there… I agree with him, but wow!

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Cato08 wrote on August, 16 11:40 AM:

In the US, I’m far more concerned about being killed by a “Christian” nut-job than a Muslim nut-job. There are people who interpret and read things into their faith that just aren’t there. I have acquaintances that truly believe that the US Constitution should be amended to make their brand of fundamental Christianity the law of the land; these are the same people say they’re afraid of Obama!

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 11:39 AM:

Paine –

Would like to debate further but I want to stay on-topic with this article. I will say though that yes, belief matters. There was another commenter that the N&O deleted entirely because he had decidedly non-PC statements. He said (more or less) that radical Muslims are just living out their faith – what their religion tells them to do.

I would liken a true believing Muslim (as Boyd became), to (just one example) an Amish Christian. They are really & truly living their belief. Obviously you see the difference.

Yes, lots of church-attenders really belong more for cultural/traditional reasons, than really choosing to buy-in to a particular denomination’s ideology. But your argument sounds like what I’ve heard about Obama & Jer. Wright’s “church” – I differ – I say it does matter what group, whether country club or church, to which you belong. And with the Gates incident, we saw where Obama really stood – he was, after all, paying attention in that pew for 20 yrs.

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canesr0ck wrote on August, 16 11:37 AM:

try reading a science book.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:35 AM:

Did ebbtide take his ball and go home?

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:35 AM:

sky5714 – it will be a cold day in hell before anybody makes me wear a hijab

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 11:31 AM:

America, wake up. Look at what Britain is doing RIGHT NOW – some municipal swimming pools – meaning taxpayer-funded – have special sessions where swimming is allowed only by those who adhere to special Muslim standards. That means women must wear “burkini”-type outfits – covered head-to-toe, with only faces showing (not even necks), and men must be covered from navel to knee. And of course men & women swim at separate times. If you’re non-Muslim – too bad. Either adhere to the Muslim standards or you don’t swim.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6034706/Swimmers-are-told-to-wear-burkinis.html

If these were pools owned by Muslims, and paid for by Muslims, big deal, But these are public swimming pools!

And read this story about the NHS (their socialized medicine service) dentist who required his patients to wear hijabs before treating them: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5718982/Muslim-NHS-dentist-tried-to-force-patients-to-wear-trad

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TOPASSISTANT wrote on August, 16 11:29 AM:

Mohammad was nothing more than a modern day pedophile that would be in prison for what he did with little girls. Those that worship him can be compared to cult leaders Jim Jones of the Peoples Temple and David Koresh of the Branch Davidians.

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chariz wrote on August, 16 11:28 AM:

THERE ARE FULL OF CRAP MUSLIMS AND FULL OF CRAP CHRISTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 11:26 AM:

“even President Obams mentioned Islam as the religion of peace or tolerance”

Obama also said that there was no pork in the porkulus package, that if it was approved unemployment wouldn’t hit 8%, that Cap’n’Tax would help our competitiveness, and a whole lot of whoppers on the Health Care Reform Bill. So I don’t view this as a significant endorsement.

What’s more important than what the book says, is what the followers do. A fair many of them do not help propagate the view that Islam is the Religion of Peace or tolerance. If the rest of the followers actively condemned those who give it a bad name, there might be a different perception. But they are either silent or celebrate the violence.

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paineintheneck wrote on August, 16 11:26 AM:

sky5714: “What is a religion, but a belief system?”

True, in theory. In practice, do you observe that all Catholics believe the same things as all Baptists? Do all Baptists believe the same things? Do all white male Baptists between the ages of 30 and 40 at Ebenezer Baptist Church believe the same things about God, Christianity and the Baptist faith? Ever notice that every religion eventually splits into various sects, sub-groups, etc.?

Do any two people actually hold exactly same vision about the nature of God or is this an inherently personal matter that varies according the individual’s experiences, i.e. the manner in which God speaks to them?

There is great value in debating beliefs, but if in the process you automatically ascribe beliefs to someone on the basis of what group they belong to, you will only be boxing with your shadow.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 11:19 AM:

ebbtide – you’re still passing along disinformation.

The Qur’an contains the words of Mohammed, who received his messages from Allah. The Qur’an is equivalent to taking all the “red letter” words from the New Testament, the actual words of Jesus Christ. Unlike the Bible, which of course contains the Old & New Testaments, the words of Mohammed are not in context – there’s no historical context within which to view them.

But Muslims also rely on the Hadith, which is a collection of historical anecdotes about the life of Mohammed. And additionally, there is the Sira, which is the biography of Mohammed’s life. There are multiple sources for the hadith, and for the Sira. You could liken those sources to liberal v. conservative.

All three combined would be roughtly equivalent to what Christians would consider the Bible.

Now the Qur’an does have verses about peace etc., but they are “abrogated” by later verses – regarding death to unbelievers, jihad, etc.

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chariz wrote on August, 16 11:17 AM:

THIS TYPE OF ACTION WILL NEVER STOP BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STUPID AND WEAK AND JUST THE SAME THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO BE A PART OF. RELIGION ITSELF IS A KILLER! NO ONE KNOWS GOD AS MUCH AS THEY CLAIM AND TO KILL FOR THE GOD IS EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS THEN IT SOUNDS!!

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:10 AM:

Obama is irrelavent to this thread.

You only brought him up to deflect our accurate criticism of that you are failing in your attempt to justify and defend.

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xan wrote on August, 16 11:09 AM:

i cant name any by name, but i remember a recent story about a guard at a church whjo killed a nutjob that opened fire in Tennessee. My brother in laws church in greensboro area also has a security guard that works during services.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:08 AM:

xan – good to know… I attend a smaller one. The thought of security seemed odd.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 11:06 AM:

I have said to read and have done any name calling ,, just pointing to quotes and books and to the fact that there are hate mongers who malign Islam and spread lies,,,,, Obama doesn’t malign Islam, or maybe you will not read what he said.

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xan wrote on August, 16 11:06 AM:

neo mom many christian churches have security guards that work them. Especially large ones.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 11:03 AM:

what great scholarship,, sky5714

“,,,three out of five verses are devoted to non-Muslims “

what Garbage!

The Quran has roughly 1/3 part stories of the Prophets and their peoples, 1/3 about Allah (God) and His Names and Attributes and praises for His acts of Magnificence, and 1/3 the laws and regulations of life for salvation.

Just read ,,, and not the Fox news or some other Islam-aphobe version.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 11:01 AM:

oh yes, ebbtide is also an Alinsky acolyte….

If you can’t actually answer or refute turn immediately to calling your opponent stupid or a racist (isolate, personalize, ridicule….)

We know the drill now.

Try again.

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 10:59 AM:

And seriously…. does anybody here go to a church or synagogue that requires security personnel? Or is that just another unique quirk of going to a mosque?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 10:57 AM:

even President Obams mentioned Islam as the religion of peace or tolerance, but i guess you are against Obama and his new initicative to better relations with the Muslims arr are instead for Bush McCain (how many still say that Obama is not born in USA, and how many that is a Muslim!!).

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 10:56 AM:

Start condemning and prosecuting the nut-balls in your mosques that preach violence. Or those that kill in the name of Islam instead of celebrating them (ie – partying in the streets after 9/11).

Until the above happens, your “religion of peace and tolerance” schtick is just a bunch of hooey.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 10:54 AM:

“Contrary to misconception, far less of the Qur’an is devoted to how the religion of Islam should be practiced than to the inferior status of non-believers. In fact, three out of five verses are devoted to non-Muslims and almost none of these are flattering. Anyone truly concerned about hate speech should take a hard look at what the Qur’an really says about those outside the faith.

We are very explicit in stating that it is wrong to stereotype or pre-judge Muslim individuals, much less to harass or harm them. But, we also do not believe that the delicate and petulant sensibilities of members of the Religion of Peace have precedence over the victims of this awful violence committed in Allah’s name each and every day.”

“All religions are not the same, and there is something very, very different about Islam that compels the astonishing level of violence and the distinct apathy of the broader community that sustains it.”

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/FAQ.htm

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 10:52 AM:

ebbtide said: “the webiste you mention is just another of zillions of hate mongering pro Israeli sites, seeking to suppress the Palestinians rights by defaming Islam”

No it’s not – you’re engaging in taqiyya. Read thisin answer to the ? “Do you hate Muslims?:

“It never ceases to amaze us when an otherwise “normal” person ignores the very real suffering of the thousands of victims of true hatred and intolerance on our list and accuses us of being a “hate site” merely because we memorialize the plight of victims and call for an end to Islamic terror.

Thousands of people are losing their lives, and tens of thousands more are suffering various and egregious physical injuries because the Qur’an says that non-Muslims are hated by Allah and that violence is sanctioned whenever there is resistance to Islamic dominance. Exposing this teaching and documenting its terrible effects does not make us a hate site. “

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 10:51 AM:

I would also like to point out that ebbtide did not condemn any of the violence in the examples I portrayed. But he did make and excuse for burning a family alive over a rumor because the book is more important than any fact-finding or lives.

Says a lot doesn’t it.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 10:47 AM:

Ditto what neo-mom said.

America even tolerates puttting a crucifix in a bucket full of urine, calling it art, and having it paid for with our tax dollars (which is totally ridiculous).

Our God can withstand such persecution. It doesn’t change who He is. But if you even whisper a word against the Qur’an in any Muslim country, you could be put to death within hours.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 10:47 AM:

OK neo_mom, about the crack of “… not the religion of peace or tolerance…”

Compare:

As the prophetic narrations of Islam say clearly: “Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman.” (Reported by Abu Dawud) “Do not kill the monks in monasteries” (Reported by Ahmad ) or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” (Reported by Ahmad ) etc etc

Now let’s see some texts of the bible, like in [Joshua 6:20-21] wherein it says “Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep.. with the edge of the sword “

And in [Joshua 6:21 and 10:40] it says: “And thus “Joshua defeated the whole land… he left no one remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.”

And see also [8:22; 10:28,29,32,36,38, 11:11,12,17,20; 12:24].

WOW! that’s genocid as we cal it today, cimes againt humanity

And Jesus said: Matthew 10:34 “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword.”

More???

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 10:45 AM:

And ebbtide… How many muslims are dying in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine? I don’t know, how many did the suicide bombers (also muslims I believe) blow up in markets or restaurants today?

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 10:43 AM:

Its a freaking BOOK.

The Koran is the only “protected” book by the military because we must not offend your delicate sensibilities.

Get a grip.

What would the world look like if Christians rioted and shot people every time a Bible was “defiled” or Jesus was portrayed, not just in a cartoon, but in something that comes out of your backside because the N&O censor won’t let me put in even what we call it for our toddler, or urine or something.

Free speech is free speech. Muslims and the Koran should be fair game just as much as the bible.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 10:42 AM:

Paine –

I disagree with you. You seem to take the point that all religions must be suspect, because all claim absolute truth, and that’s just a subjective judgment. Not going to argue with you about whether to believe in God or not, but certainly you can evaluate religions by the fruits of their beliefs.

What is a religion, but a belief system? What you choose to believe in, reflects your values – what you think is worth living and dying for. A religion, or belief system, usually contains scripture, its adherents engage in prayer to its higher power, and it has prescribed behaviors.

Look at the fruits of Islam just within the last 50 yrs (after oil wealth), and what do you see? Not just a few extremists (you can always find a few loony individuals who profess a faith), but many many examples of violence done in the name of Islam.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 10:42 AM:

“Jews today — for your information kedavra — have been hijacked by Zionists (many who are atheists and their attachment to communism is well known), but many orthodox Jews are against Zionists”

So, ET, how many of those anti-Zionist Jews are chomping at the bit to emigrate to a Muslim country, or have their host country adopt Sharia?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 10:34 AM:

OK, neo_mom, and how many Muslims have been dying lately? IN Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc.

If these are criminal acts, then the legal system should punish by law. This list in nothing for should i give you the crime count in US cities??? Or the UK, or South Africa?

Crime is rampant many places of the world by the break down of morality and law and order.

Defiling of Quran is a crime that some do to provoke Muslims as in Gitmo and other places and it is a crime by US military directive.

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paineintheneck wrote on August, 16 10:30 AM:

(Con’t)

Also, I have found that I cannot believe half of what I read in the N&O (for example) and the other half needs to be considered very carefully. This makes me wonder how anyone can place literal, blind faith in documents that were written hundreds or thousands of years ago or how they can place absolute faith in what any one person says? I have noticed that people who do this tend to do crazy things. I try to avoid people with this characteristic because they are unlikable. I wonder if they have ever considered why God would give them a brain if they are not supposed to use it in order to stay out of trouble and to lead a happy life?

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paineintheneck wrote on August, 16 10:30 AM:

Over the last several years I have gotten to know a number of Muslims. I have noticed that some of them are devout and some are secular. Some are serious and some are playful. Some are hard working and some not so much, ditto for intelligence. In general, I have noticed that each Muslim tends to have different personality characteristics than the other Muslims.

This is interesting because I have also noticed similar variations among Christians and Jews. And, I have seen that among blacks, whites, Latinos, Orientals etc. there are similar differences in personality, capability and moral fortitude.

This has got me thinking. I have developed a hypothesis: “All people within a group are not necessarily the same”. Or, said another way “people are individuals”. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this curiosity?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 10:27 AM:

We will see – kedavra — about prince but it is known for many years by many who are in the beltway” [that’s Washington DC insiders by the way] that he had this agenda, but know that the law in Muslims land is corrupted and a farce, but this is the legacy of colonialism and interventions to prop up those puppets. True Islamic law has stringent judicial process to prove guilt, but the corruptions of today are the misery of the Muslims and this is a major grievance against their rights.

And where for prince in jail, like the country club that multi billion dollar swindler Maddox is in, while million of black Americans are in horror situations in the USA prison system for petty crimes!!! I volunteer in the prison system, so don’t tell me about USA justice!

A NY Times article: Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’

And on and on

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neo_mom wrote on August, 16 10:26 AM:

Yeah – Christians are just doing dandy in Islamic countries…. A Christian family was burned alive in Pakistan earlier this month for RUMORS that the Koran had been “defiled” in some way.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/02/christians-burned-alive-pakistan

And they are certainly NOT the religion of peace or tolerance…

2 facing the death penalty for translating the Koran (its from the AP thru Fox before you all go nuts)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489104,00.html

stoning a 13-year old for being raped

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7708169.stm

killing a nun over the cartoons

http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007/03/albanians-kill-serbian-nun.html

There are thousands more, so spare us the crap – or the moral equivalency of the crusades. Give recent examples..

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 10:17 AM:

Jews today — for your information kedavra — have been hijacked by Zionists (many who are atheists and their attachment to communism is well known), but many orthodox Jews are against Zionists since they see them as mis-representing Judaism and misleading the Jewish people about the historic role of Israel in God’s paln for salvation, which is to wait for the Messiah. some of these orthodox Jews are prominent at pro- Palestinians rallies against the tyranny of Zionists. Remember that the terrorist Zionist murdered prominent anti Zionist Jews that were not Zionist in the early days of Hagana, Irgun and Stern Gang, and the rise of modern day Israel. Remember that former Israeli Prime Minister Shamir said:

“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war

[August 1943 article titled “Terror”]

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 10:09 AM:

ET – I guess the difference between our cultures is that if the accusations against Prince are proven, our society will put him in jail.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 10:06 AM:

Who has empowered the Shia of Iraq who have “Taqiyya” as a base of religion, whereas we s Sunnis see it as hypocrisy, and Jizya is well known as a tax for safety since they Jews and Christians in an Islamic State are except from military service, READ.

Where –pray tell– is Jizya still practiced, since the Muslim world is largely secular after the era of colonialism.

The webiste you ( sky5714 ) mention is just another of zillions of hate mongering pro Israeli sites, seeking to suppress the Palestinians rights by defaming Islam

why not http://www.islamreligion.com/ a web site that I am proud to be associated with.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 10:06 AM:

Sky – Jizya is being practiced today in many Western countries. Look at how many islamic terrorists live on the “dole” – in Germany, France, UK, and even here in the US. The jizya tax is where the infidels pay for the Islamic indolent. They’ve realized that this is what that can get from our own welfare systems. Some of the most radical imams who directly contributed to major terrorist attacks have soaked millions from the UK. Many of the 9/11 attackers were getting money from the German gov’t in Hamburg.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 10:00 AM:

ET petrodollars ,etc,,,, HAH

Your point differs from mine how?

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 9:59 AM:

“The tolerance of the Muslims for Jews and Christians in their lands is well known and documented, and that’s why the Jews welcomed the Muslim rule as compared to the tyranny they suffered under the Christians in the holy land.”

Now it is true that during the First Crusade some of the troops did wreak havoc on Jews on the way to the middle east, and word of this preceded the Crusade and scared the Jews there. That was a huge mistake.

But tell me where are the Jews today who are clamoring to be “tolerated” under Muslim rule today? Is this well known and documented? Are they welcoming this rule?

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:58 AM:

petrodollars ,etc,,,, HAH

what about Exon, and the big ‘seven sisters’ (google that one!) and what they have done to suck billions even trillions out of us poor sucker consumers who have no where else to buy from.

And about WAR, well

Read The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, & Power by Daniel Yergin, and A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Orde (Paperback) by F. William Engdahl, and Oil, Power & Empire: Iraq and the US Global Agenda by Larry Everest, and see The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money & Power – War and Oil (1992), etc etc

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 9:55 AM:

Actually ebbtide the INtolerance of Muslims for Jews and Christians is well-known. You keep repeating falsehoods – just keep spreading the taqiyya, right? After all, lying to infidels is accepted and expected.

From the Qur’an (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

Why don’t you explain the concept of Jizya, ebbtide – still practiced today in Muslim countries.

Anyone wanting the truth about how Islam is practiced today, go to thereligionofpeace.com. It is NOT a hit-piece on Muslims at all.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 9:53 AM:

ET – “The tolerance of the Muslims for Jews and Christians in their lands is well known and documented”

Have you ever actually been to real muslim countries? I have. You’ve got to be joking if you are implying that today they are tolerant of other religions. Try going to Saudi Arabia with a bible. Try and find a Christian church or synagogue there. Try entering the country with an Israeli entry stamp on it (that’s why the Israelis, on request, will give you a temporary/removable passport page). Try preaching Christianity there – it will earn you and any converts death. In Egypt the muslims kidnap young Coptic Christian girls and force them into muslim marriages. Even in our Western countries we have example after example of “honor killings” in the name of their religion. Open your eyes.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:50 AM:

oh boy islama-phobes like jihad watch which are the new hatemongers ,, a very scholarly approach indeed.

Don’t go the university professors and other reputable scholars, and read works of knowdge fromthe sources and true experts, but go to these fox news so called experts Mr Limbaugh while your at it,,, good advise .

I say read history in a balanced way seek reputable scholarship, reflect, etc and you bring us hate mongers funded by the Israeli lobby, which John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt documented has so much influence in the USA that it is criminal against our national interests.

READ. THINK.

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 9:46 AM:

Chrisitianity consists of many branches and teachings, as had Islam traditionally. Most of them had fairly moderate teachings. The problem has been that petrodollars have fueled the propagation of Wahhabi-based teachings and they have literally taken over many mosques/madrassas around the world. This sect teaches, based on the Koran and its associated verses, that Sharia law was literally handed down directly from the mouth of God and is His Law, and that for any other form of law to exist on the Earth is blasphemy, and that it is every Good Muslim’s responsibility to ensure this blasphemy is eliminated. It’s kind of tough to reach an accomodation with people who want your government, law, and entire way of life wiped off the planet. However, it also teaches that Muslims can reach temporary accomodations with unbelievers to achieve a tactical advantage as part of that goa.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:42 AM:

You say “last” crusade but please,,,, as the allegations against Erik Prince in VA court said: ‘Prince “views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe,” and that Prince’s companies “encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life.”

This company had billions in US contracts, TAXPAYERS money, and he is implicated in so much more.

The tolerance of the Muslims for Jews and Christians in their lands is well known and documented, and that’s why the Jews welcomed the Muslim rule as compared to the tyranny they suffered under the Christians in the holy land. I guess it depends on who you read for history as animal farm and 1984 by George Orwell so articulately point out.

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penfisher wrote on August, 16 9:36 AM:

Please check out this: http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/war.html

and this: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024886.php

for an analysis of Islam and its tenets regarding non-Muslims

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 9:35 AM:

In the end, pretty much every race has been on both sides of the genocide coin, and every religion has its episodes of horrific violence. But the world should have evolved a bit since the majority of that. Islam just hasn’t caught up. By the way – we can look at our own episode with slavery and we continue to try and expiate that sin. But the amount of Christians/Europeans that the Muslims captured and put into slavery actually dwarfs the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:33 AM:

Eli, Eli translated into Arabic is: Ilahi Ilahi ,,, very similar since both Semitic languages, one Aramaic one Arabic.

But the power of misinformation and mis-education on the American people is amazing, to breed hate towards some peoples like so many years hate against Indians and Blacks and Irish and Italians etc, and now against mooooslims are the new big bad enemy and bugi-man for false flag operations [ie covert operations conducted by governments,,,] wiki it,,, this case is a false flag operation, since so many others have guns and religious beliefs. Note that there is website for volunteers Mahal IDF (Israel Defense Forces) Volunteers org, google it and see for yourself. I guess there are some types of overseas “jihad” for US, UK etc citizens that are still allowed

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kedavra wrote on August, 16 9:31 AM:

You ought to study the era a bit more to understand the origins of the Crusades. In the few hundred years prior to the first Crusade, Islam swept through the heart of Christendom at the point of a sword – enslaving those who were not either killed or ‘converted.’ They would kidnap Christian youth, torture/brainwash them to become part of their army (the Jannisaries). Today’s grandest mosque in Istanbul is the old “vatican” of the Christian Orthodox religion. The last “Crusade” was in the 1600’s – and it was fought in Vienna – The Gates of Vienna – a failed seige attempt that ultimately broke the back of Islam’s almost certain takeover of the rest of Europe it did not already occupy. Basically the Crusades bought Christianity another millenium – but that time is now up. Look at the demographics of Europe. It’s pretty much a lost cause now – most are on the path to be Sharia countries in the next 10-40 years.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:19 AM:

The Arabic translation of Bible uses the name “Allah” to refer to God in Genesis 1:1: “Fee al-badi’ khalaqa Allahu as-Samaawaat wa al-Ard…” In the Hebrew the word in Genesis 1:1 is “elohim.”

the point here is only to show that the word “Allah” means “The God” and not some idol or pagan deity as some have absurdly tried to propagate maliciously.

By the way the Catholic Encyclopedia mentions that the English word god and God is the “(Anglo-Saxon God; German Gott; akin to Persian khoda; Hindu khooda). The root-meaning of the name (from Gothic root gheu; Sanskrit hub or emu, “to invoke or to sacrifice to”) is either “the one invoked” or “the one sacrificed to.” The Oxford English Dictionary gives a detailed etymology and says: “The word God is derived from the old Teutonic form gudo which means that which is invoked (or worshipped) by sacrifice.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:17 AM:

Who is “Father” for the Arab Christians then. swimplusofnc, please!

In the other Semitic languages the word for God is closely related to what we have mentioned about Arabic. The Aramaic word for God is “alah.” In Hebrew the word for God or god is (אל) (el) and “Elah,” (or Eloh) and the plural form is (אלוהים) (elohím).

Jesus “cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” [Matthew 27: 46]

hmmm,,,, figure that one out.

GO back to the Greek and Hebrew

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:11 AM:

As for fcmmark who wrote “Islam … is a violent religion.. hates Christianity..” bah blah

Who started the crusades, the 100 years war, the Napoleon wars, and WWI and WWII (Hitler was allied with Catholics against communists by the way) etc, etc???

As for hating Christianity, a flat lie, since Islam by law is known to be tolerant to Jews and Christians in their midst, and that’s why Jews sought refuge in Muslim lands against the tyranny and genocide of the Inquisition and Pogroms etc that’s why there are millions of Christians there Arab lands and why the seat of eastern orthodoxy remain Istanbul. READ history please!

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melonman75 wrote on August, 16 9:07 AM:

So, since the holy books of Christianity, Islam and Judaism and their various cults have verses to justify and encourage the victimization, dehumanization and destruction of non-believers, AND since their gods can’t speak and clarify anything, tell me again why we should follow these fairy tales? Some cultures had gods for everything. We laugh at them now. There’s a lesson.

What will it take for religious people to see that the only ones killing babies, doctors and women who seek education are people?

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swimplusofnc wrote on August, 16 9:03 AM:

False god of Allah!!! WOW what ignorance!!!, Arabic word for God is Allah,

So thus fcmmark, whom I assume is Christian, you are saying that the trinity is false by denying one of the trinity, huh???

I guess you are Unitarian, or of the brethren, or Seventh day advents , or others who deny trinity.

ebbtide – you are the ignorant one if you beleive that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. They might teach that in 6th grade, but its bull and both sides know it.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 9:01 AM:

Arab Christians -who are millions- say, that Jesus is “Ibnullah” (Son of God), by way of their trinity belief, and thus to deny Allah is to deny the “Father.” Remember Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven.

As one car sign said: Pray to whom Jesus prayed to!

He said, ‘I praise you, Father, lord of heaven and earth” (Luke 10:21).

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xan wrote on August, 16 8:58 AM:

i see alot of people talking about how islam is a violent religion…the same can be said about Christianity. Did we not have 3 crusades? Did we not have witch trials and hunts. Did catholics and protestants not try to kill each other for years over differing views. Did we not set up schools and violently punish and hurt children who refused to reform to Christianity? Last i checked werent our god loving christian ancestors taking slaves from other countries because our ancestors were better than those non christian heathens?

all religions are violent when a member of one compares theres to another. Religion is just like any other weapon, its deadly if handled by the wrong person

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:52 AM:

False god of Allah!!! WOW what ignorance!!!, Arabic word for God is Allah,

So thus fcmmark, whom I assume is Christian, you are saying that the trinity is false by denying one of the trinity, huh???

I guess you are Unitarian, or of the brethren, or Seventh day advents , or others who deny trinity.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:47 AM:

by the way, before one says go home overseas, etc, as some commentators say for the Muslims to ‘go back home where you belong? etc.

I am a Muslim and I am from the USA, born, raised and bred. I should leave my home because you and your likes say so and threaten us?

My grandmother used to brag that her relatives came over on the Mayflower.

Does that make me more American that the majority of “Americans” at that time who were “Indians” (later to be mostly eliminated by official genocide, by the way).

Some in comments on this case have said that the USA was founded on “Christianity” but the founding fathers were dead set again religion being part of the official set up and that’s why they crafted the constitution and bill of rights the way they did, and by the way many of them were “Deists” (search that one) and not Christians

For more see:

Support Daniel Boyd at blogs

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fcmmark wrote on August, 16 8:44 AM:

When will people see Islam as it really is. It is a violent religion that truly hates Christianity and will do anything in its power to destroy a nation, people, etc. who will not bow to the false god of Allah. There is no such thing as peaceful vs. violent muslims. At the very root of their religion is hate and violence.

Re

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:41 AM:

Platowasright wrote

“If Prince had his way, things would stay the same.”

What a Gem!

The founder Prince has been charged with ‘ fraud, multiple murders, child prostitution, executive sex rings, steroids, “hate” kills, weapons smuggling, being Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe,” and “encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life.”

READ Princes case please and see about this Blackwater [the mercenaries for rent group] that USA pays billions TAXPAYERS money to!!!

Yep I guess as Platowasright said “things would stay the same” here in the good ol USA!

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JoeBloggs wrote on August, 16 8:35 AM:

What did Radwan, or other people at the mosque, propose to do when Jude Kenan Mohammad shouted that Radwan had misinterpreted the Quran? Is there no outreach to people so obviously intent on using the Quran for their own needs of hate and violence? What do muslims do to protect the muslim faith, to demonstate that the muslim faith is a peaceful one? There doesn’t seem to be any real leadership within the community to deal with those among them intent on destroying the faith.

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robdarich wrote on August, 16 8:21 AM:

I think it’s clear that anybody involved with islam, science or christianity is harboring malicious intent. It’s assured. Isn’t it? And don’t get me started on the dirty dirty Irish. (From my manifesto: “I’m an idiot”)

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mm07ju19 wrote on August, 16 8:16 AM:

Whenever a Muslim is arrested for planning or carrying out violent activity, articles appear about how those actions don’t represent “true Islam.” The fact remains that almost every day you can find a significant act of terrorism as an act of jihad throughout the world (and not the “peaceful, personal struggle” kind). Where are influential Islamic voices in opposition to these acts? With very few exceptions, they remain silent about egregious acts of violence and destruction against non-Muslim civilization but go berserk every time their feelings are hurt over expressions of free speech (such as the publication of the Mohammad cartoons). Now preemptive acts of censorship are occurring in order not to upset fragile Muslim sensibilities, like Yale University Press prohibiting any representation of Mohammad in a scholarly work on the cartoon controversy. Dhimmitude won’t have to be imposed on free society, it’s already being delivered by degrees.

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Platowasright wrote on August, 16 8:12 AM:

What’s the difference? If Boyd had his way, we would all be bowing to Allah and our way of government would be destroyed. If Prince had his way, things would stay the same.

Bottom line, the holy book of Islam advocates violence towards those who do not believe in their religion. Now ebbtide is going to dispute that statement, but look at the world today. Where are the problems with terrorism? Almost all of them involve moslems, almost all of them. For that matter, simply google up “violence Islam”.

If the religion of Islam is as ebbtide wishes it were, then why don’t the “peace loving” moslems deal with their own who advocate violence? They say that the terrorists are a small percentage. Well if we have 1.2 billion of them and 95% of them are peaceful, then 5% are terrorists and that amounts to 6 million terrorists.

When that happens, i will begin to believe ebbtide and the apologists for is obviously a what very violent religion

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 8:07 AM:

rob – since when did the OK bombing (I’m assuming you’re talking about McVeigh et al) and the clinic bombings (you mean Eric Rudolph?) have anything to do with churches or Christianity?

McVeigh claimed to be agnostic and also said that science was his “religion”. Rudolph, at best, gave mixed messages – said he was born Catholic but although mainstream media said he was part of some “Christian identity” movement (really not Christian and not indicative of a Christian’s identity), he denied it, and also said he preferred Nietzche to the Bible. Sorry – not Christian.

Seriously, no offense – but where did you pick up the religion link to these criminals? it’s just fiction.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 8:03 AM:

As for the allegations of participation in “terrorist training camps” in the Afghan Jihad, what a bunch of garbage!!! Remember that the “Reagan Doctrine,” supported sacrifice against the “Evil Empire” of International Communism!

Reagan said introducing leaders of the Afghan Mujahedeen (from the word Jihad) to media on the White House lawns (1985): “These gentlemen are the moral equivalents of America’s founding fathers.”

Thus Daniel Patrick Boyd as a teenager was a valiant soul who sacrificed himself in the US backed effort, a patriotic act of which he remains proud. Are we to revile those patriots that sacrificed themselves in Vietnam and other places against International Communism? READ the History please.

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ebbtide wrote on August, 16 7:56 AM:

What a bunch of lies about Boyd, for just look at how his neighbors have supported him and testified that he was a very good and friendly neighbor. He never meant that these people have left Islam is the sense portrayed here, but the meaning is that if they prefer the comforts of this life and money etc over their obligations of Islam, then they have left faith. This true about what Jews and Christians say also about the love of materialism and worldly things as compared with being true to faith in God. Here we have another example of trying to sensationalize the Boyd story to paint him as inherently evil, like so many other Islama-phobes do with Muslims in general.

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robdarich wrote on August, 16 7:55 AM:

Particular occurances are not indicative of general status. Lest we investigate the OK bombing religions and surmise that their religion is the cart in front of the horse.

Clinic bombings, aren’t those guys religious? If religion’s the thing, wouldn’t many religions be implicated – you know, if the link really mattered. But sum it all up and you’ll realize, it doesn’t.

And I resent any suggestion that I think for myself, my mom tells me what to think, she tells me what to do.

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 7:55 AM:

ebbtide – you’re a little late. Usually you’re first on the scene when a story like this appears. It certainly didn’t take you long to come up with the Prince comparison. You wouldn’t have had advance notice, now would you?

The timing of your comments is just amazing. It’s just fascinating that you only comment on stories involving Islam/Muslims. And obviously these kinds of stories don’t appear every day in the N&O.

Your prescience is simply awe-inspiring.

(to FS – if you’re out there, you can always assume another identity. Other people have done that – I know that for a fact.)

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bishopville wrote on August, 16 7:42 AM:

Do mosque security men carry weapons?

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sky5714 wrote on August, 16 7:41 AM:

Robdarich – seriously, you need to think for yourself. Don’t want to call you out on this but I have to. You’re the one who’s being spoon-fed. Crazy outbursts like the one described just don’t happen in Christian churches. And for Shimron to call this incident “minor” – I’d hate to think what she would consider “major”. How ridiculous!

Really, instead of believing everything the N&O tells you to think, try doing some research about Islam on your own. The religion over & over again calls for death to infidels. Jesus NEVER said to kill those who didn’t believe – neither did Buddha. You’re just spouting off politically correct talking points.

If it were Scientology or some fringe polygamist, gun-totin’ Mormon sect, I’d bet your opinion would be different. And why do you say “dirty”? Islam isn’t a race – it’s a religion.

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bacchianm wrote on August, 16 7:25 AM:

Robdarich, the last I have heard, there are no methodist congregations planning violent holy war against the western world or the buddhist either. Get off your soapbox and realize there are groups of fundamentalist in the Islamic community that calls for death to infidels. And last i have heard, not many muslims turn them in.

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robdarich wrote on August, 16 6:57 AM:

Have the law enforcement agencies infiltrated other religions? (please lets not pretend this hasn’t been happening for over a decade, you know… before the dirty dirty Irish Muslims became so dirty dirty.)

Sometimes, the gov’s like the jkass in a schoolyard yelling “Yeah! lets you and him fight!”, but hey, someone’s got to do it or I guess or the lame-brains will start thinking about something else. Now open wide you spoon-fed lame-brains. You need to be told what to think – or what will you think?

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